Spain - 50 Pesetas - Francisco Franco - Disordered Dates [gelöst]

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Diese Nachricht betrifft: Überarbeitung einer Münze im Katalog anfragen

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On this page: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1884.html
The dates are not in order as seen here:


The dates are not in order for 2 reasons: 1. the coins' mint dates are actually listed in the mint mark field instead of the date field and 2. the entries in the mint mark fields are inconsistent.

Regarding 1 above: Many Spanish coins, including this one, depict a complete year representing the year of authorization for the coin type BUT depict the year of issuance as a two-digit value incused on a star. All of the pages of such coins that I have looked at list the authorization year in the date field and the 2-digit issuance year in the mint mark field. This may be helpful for new collectors in finding the coin in the catalog (if a coin exists that was not issued in the year it was authorized) because oftentimes the issuance year goes unnoticed until pointed out on the page. This is mildly troublesome beyond the beginner stages because the date range searching feature does not expect the issue date in the mint mark field. This also is a partial cause in the incorrect auto ordering of this coin because all lines list 1957 as the issue date leaving the ordering to the mint mark.

Regarding 2 above: All other pages I have seen list the 2-digit issue date as the mint mark, which resolves the incorrect ordering problem. This does not resolve the problems of issue date searching however. On this page, some of the lines follow the 2-digit year standard (e.g. "1957 74"), but other lines follow a different standard that is perhaps more clear to intent (e.g. "1957 (1960) 60"). This inconsistency yields the incorrect ordering because the mint marks are auto sorted with parenthesis after numbers.

I attempted to modify the page to follow the standard used on other pages, but the actual mint mark text seems to be the 2-digit value, so I am unsure of how the inconsistency is being injected. My modification request was rejected because the dates are auto sorted.

Interestingly enough the sorting issue caused some confusion to klei92 in this request: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic103571.html

Personally, I would like to see the date field being used to represent the issue date (as that would resolve all of the problems). Then the authorization date could be listed in the mint mark field if desired. Perhaps something like this "1960 60 1957". My only concern then would be the possible existence of a coin that was not issued in the same year it was authorized. This should be carefully reviewed to ensure new collectors can easily identify their coins.

Alternatively, I think it would be acceptable to identify how the inconsistency is occurring and convert all lines to display the mint mark with the more descriptive model (e.g. "1957 (1960) 60" or "1957 60 (1960)"). This naturally still leaves the date range search problem unaddressed. If this approach is taken, all similarly-dated Spanish coins should be updated to be consistent.

At a minimum (and perhaps in the meantime), the ordering problem can be corrected in the form of "1957 60".

I am willing to do some of the leg work in this endeavor, but I may need some detailed explanation/discussion to better understand the date list section of page modification. I am also willing to split this into multiple requests, but figured they are closely related enough (and a large enough undertaking) to be one request. Also, the preferred resolution would resolve all related requests with one change for each year/coin pair instead of having to change the same fields multiple times for all separate requests.
The KM SCWC lists the dates slightly differently, but also disordered ...

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/spain-50-pesetas-km-788-1957-58-195771-cuid-1082942-duid-1555586

... so you'll be taking on a task which no one has mastered -- but I have faith you can improve it!! Thanks for being willing to try.
About a similar question some time ago, Xavier answered:
Verweis : "Xavier"​Lines are sorted by date (older to newer), then by mint (alphabetical order) and finally by comment (alphabetical order).
​If there is good reason for defining an order, you should set numbers at the beginning of the comments (example).


The problem with this coin isn't about how is defined, but some bug in the database with this record. I'll ask the administrators to fix it.
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
Not really a bug ... the lower dates were altered with the D button the once on top not.
So either change the altered ones back to the 1957 date or D button the ones without the years in () too.
Thank you very much, Idolenz. I had never used this feature intended for other calendars. Now the year list is ok except an year with a ? in the date.
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
What do you mean by D button? I'm not seeing anything on the edit page related to a D button.

Thank you zegeri the year list matches the minimum resolution I mentioned above (besides that pesky BA). This coin has a similar BA year that is not representing as a question mark: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces781.html Perhaps we can identify a difference on that page to fix the question mark issue.

Still remaining, do we want to improve the date representation for all these coins? I don't want to put in the effort if it will end up verbatim rejected.
According to https://en.numista.com/forum/topic63043.html the D button is a referee only tool. It can be applied to dates line by line. So the D button could be applied to the DA line to revert it back to 1957. Even if it reverts to 1957 (1958) BA, it will still appear at the end of the list due to alphabetical sorting.
The D button is a referee's tool to assign a gregorian date to a coin with a non-gregorian calendar struck. It has nothing to do with Spanish coins. I don't know how those years ended up having a non-gregorian date. Thanks for warning the error.

You can find a correct example of using the D button here: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces182978.html
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
The example you linked seems to be exactly what we need.

The year of the Spanish coins are the two-digit inscribed code NOT the authorization date of the coin type. We could have the years represented as "non-gregorian" even though they technically are. Something like "60 (1960)" similar to the 1 Yen's "2 (2020)". Then we may be able to handle DA coins with single-year custom dates "BA (1958)", if we end up not being able to we could specify it as a mint mark and a description (like we have) "58 (1958) BA" and "Estimated - Issued to Commemorate the 1958 Barcelona Exposition with "BA" replacing the Star on the left side of Reverse"

Why are we even referencing 1957 for every year of this coin besides the authorization date being printed on the coin more visibly than the two-digit issuance year? Is the two-digit issuance year actually a mint mark or is it the actual year of the coin?
Verweis : "zegeri"​The D button is a referee's tool to assign a gregorian date to a coin with a non-gregorian calendar struck. It has nothing to do with Spanish coins. I don't know how those years ended up having a non-gregorian date. Thanks for warning the error.

​This is not exactly true--the D button is used to correct erroneous dates. On the example you showed, the D button was likely never used because the calendar is set to Japanese - Reiwa era, and so those dates in parenthesis were automatically generated by the system.

The link earlier in the thread was about Tibet, which is the only calendar I know of that has no automatic conversions (it would need a mathematical equation, which I do not think is possible with the calendar). In regards to Tibet, every date needs this manual correction.

The D button is more helpful in some calendars than others. For example, it is quite helpful in cases that use the Hijri calendar, on coins and banknotes that show both the Hijri date and the Gregorian date. Here is a pretty extreme example, under the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note245720.html

On Numista's Hijri calendar, 1293 is set to 1876, 1294 is set to 1877, and 1295 is set to 1878. However, the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar do not always allign, so we must use the D button to correct the years 1293 and 1295 to display 1877 on that particular page.

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That aside, I think the 1957 date on these Spanish coins would be comparible to a frozen date, which also has many examples under the Ottoma Empire:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces5194.html

On that piece, the frozen date is 1327 (1909), but the exact date is indicated by regnal years (in this case, showing the coins were struck from 1910-1915).

So... I think this would still be relevant for the pieces under Spain, seeing as how the D button can be used to correct that 1957 frozen date to the actual dates these pieces were struck, as indicated in the stars.

Another option would be to change everything to a solid date (which would include changing the BA to a ND (1958) and completely omitting 1957 from all years), then adding a comment on the year-lines saying something along the lines of 'Frozen date 1957'. I recall there being some pages that use this format, but I cannot think of specific examples off the top of my head.

(And with that being said, "60 (1960)" would not be proper because this is not Year 60 of the Gregorian calendar--the coins just omitted the first two digits of the year, meaning it would be a solid "1960".)

Either way, it does seem weird to me that all year-lines are listed as only 1957, even though the actual Gregorian date also appears on the coin--I think it would make more sense if the actual date took precedence.
I am amenable to either resolution Sulfur provided, with a slight preference to using the solid date and listing "Frozen date 1957". I would like to retain the year the BA coins were minted even if they do not appear on the coin. Should it be listed as a 1958 coin with BA mintmark or a No Date coin with a BA mintmark and 1958 referenced in the comments?

Again, I am willing to put in the time to get all Spanish coins consistent with each other. Naturally, I would be unable to submit changes for approval with the D button solution where I am not a referee.

I just checked various Spanish coins and realized that the dates are all locked down, so I am also unable to submit changes for approval with the other resolution. If the Frozen Date solution is acceptable, can the pages be unlocked so that I can submit changes for approval? We could even go one-by-one or in small groups to avoid opening it up and allowing the request system to be inundated with other modifications.

If this is agreeable and can be done, I would like to start with the original coin page listed in this thread to make sure we are on the same page and agree to format before moving forward to other coins.

Another question that may reveal a partial roadblock for me to complete the effort: if the D button was used on a year (as with the current version of the originally referenced coin), does the D button need to be used again to return to unadjusted date format? If so, those years will have to be adjusted by a referee as well.
When listed as a ND, the BA year-line would be ND (1958), so the date would still appear.

With that being said, it looks like referee opted to keep the 1957 date where it is, and use the D button to say the corrected years (on the 50 Pesetas page, it used to be 1957 58, and it is now 1957 (1958) [no mint letter]). I used the D button on the other two denominations so they all follow the same format:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1884.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces778.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces781.html

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And two address some comments:

Even if the year-list was un-verified, you would not be able to edit the years due to members having the year-lines marked as owned. This is a fail-safe (if they have the year marked as owned, there should be a reason the date is there), and not even the referee can change the years. Master referees can, however, so if you ever spot a date that you cannot change, just mention it.

And yes, the D button can be used to remove corrected dates, if that is needed. The button is simple to use, so if they must be unadjusted, I can do that too. :)
Status geändert zu Erledigt (Sulfur, 30 Dez. 2020, 04:20)

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