Libya: Hijri calendar 1377 / Gregorian 2009?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=libye&r=&ct=coin&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tp=y&tt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=3&no=&v=&i=&b=&d=&u=&a=&dg=2009&m=&f=&t=&w=&g=&se=&c=&wi=&sw=

Normally 1377 should be 1957? On the coins it's plainly written 2009!

Can anybody explain, why that's not so?

The translation on all 4 coins is The Great People's Socialist Arab Libyan Jamahiriya 1377 after the death of the prophet 2009
The Prophet died in 632 AD.

Verweis : "rsirian1"​The translation on all 4 coins is The Great People's Socialist Arab Libyan Jamahiriya 1377 after the death of the prophet 2009
​The Prophet died in 632 AD.

​Indeed, it is 1377 gregorian years since his death, which are longer years than the Hijri years are. The coins should not be shown as being dated 1377 in the Hijri calendar. There is no hijri date listed at all on the coin. An odd choice of number to commemorate though. Even 1430 Hijri years is an unusual number to choose.

632 + 1377 = 2009, but 2009 should be hijri 1430
hijri 1377 is 1957.

A beautiful mis-match!

The simple answer it isn't the hijri calendar

So who wants to make the change requests on those coins?

There are 2 other similar coins from 2001 and 2004 except they don't have an AD date on them.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=libye&r=&ct=coin&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tp=y&tt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=3&no=&v=&i=&b=&d=&u=&a=&dg=2000-2008&m=&f=&t=&w=&g=&se=&c=&wi=&sw=

Verweis : "Sjoelund"​So who wants to make the change requests on those coins?

​I nominate you. I can't think of anybody better, you caught the error.

Verweis : "harryg"​

Verweis : "Sjoelund"​So who wants to make the change requests on those coins?

​​I nominate you. I can't think of anybody better, you caught the error.

​and seconded

Yes, but I do not really know anything about the Hijri dates, so I suggest somebody with a knowledge about them to argue the change.

EDIT: 12/07/2021:
Do we know if the coin is really from 2009 AD or if it's from 1377 Hijri?

How about this as a first base for the Change request?

Has to be from 2009 AD since currency is Dinar (1977-date). If it were 1377 Hijri (1957 AD) the currency would be the Pound. NGC dates these as MD1377-2009. MD obviously for Muhammad Death.

Sounds correct. Thanks. Ole

So I'll make the 6 CR following this pattern, OK?


The green box will go into the comments section and the translation will stay as is!

Yes. That looks good for the four 2009 coins with the change on the date line from 1377 (2009) to 2009 or 2009 (1430). The 2001 and 2004 coins are a little different in that they do not have the AD date on them so technically they would be ND (2001) and ND (2004). Also, their years are locked so you can't make that change on the CR.

This I'm going to add in the comments section



Is that simple and clear enough?

Yes, looks good. Two comments: 1) spelling Hejira should be Hijri. 2) The Gregorian dates are 1 day off from what the date calculator in Numisdocs gives. I don't know which is correct.

Verweis : "rsirian1"​Yes, looks good. Two comments: 1) spelling Hejira should be Hijri. 2) The Gregorian dates are 1 day off from what the date calculator in Numisdocs gives. I don't know which is correct.

​

According to Google the 1430AH started the 28/29/30 dec 2008
the ah 1431 17/18/19 dec 2009
the ah1432 7/8 dec 2010

So there is room for interpretations

OK.

The purpose of this graphic is to show that coins minted in 2009 AD correlate to 1430 AH (01/01/2009 to 18/12/2009) or 1431 AH (19/12/2009 to 31/12/2009)?

Verweis : "rsirian1"​OK.
​
​The purpose of this graphic is to show that coins minted in 2009 AD correlate to 1430 AH (01/01/2009 to 18/12/2009) or 1431 AH (19/12/2009 to 31/12/2009)?

​Right, or that ONE AH-year can have one or two AD-years

I guess now that I thought about it a little longer I'm questioning the need for this. Literally every single coin from an Islamic state or coin with an AH date on it has the same issue but the "translation" from AH to AD or AD to AH for every other coin in the catalog is just the year that makes up the majority of days. Why do these coins need an additional explanation? For these four coins we know the mint date is 2009. The "translated" AH date should just be 1430 to be consistent with the thousands of other similar coins.

Verweis : "rsirian1"​I guess now that I thought about it a little longer I'm questioning the need for this. Literally every single coin from an Islamic state or coin with an AH date on it has the same issue but the "translation" from AH to AD or AD to AH for every other coin in the catalog is just the year that makes up the majority of days. Why do these coins need an additional explanation? For these four coins we know the mint date is 2009. The "translated" AH date should just be 1430 to be consistent with the thousands of other similar coins.

​Because some countries like Algeria, km129, show both AH and AD dates that way (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces600.html)
1422 - 2001
1422 - 2002
1424 - 2003
1424 - 2004

if there's concensus, I'll let that part out, of course. I just thought that it needed a general documentation, but probably not for the Libyan coins.

Yes but your example KM 129 is not the same thing. Those dates where AH date has two AD dates are because that's what's actually on the coins. There are coins with "1422 - 2001" on them and other coins with "1422 - 2002" on them. To lump them both under 1422 (2001) would not make sense.

Ok. Will not use that part

That's my opinion but I'm certainly open to other's.

BTW, did you notice that the coin pictured on that page has 1414-1993 on it which doesn't show up on the date list?

Verweis : "rsirian1"​That's my opinion but I'm certainly open to other's.
​
​BTW, did you notice that the coin pictured on that page has 1414-1993 on it which doesn't show up on the date list?

​have not come around to it yet....

I just tried to make the CR for the 50 rial coin, but I did not succed:

Could change the date to Gregorian,

COULD NOT change the wrong 1377 in the year line to 2009, no access possible!

The CR is here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic111310.html

Verweis : "rsirian1"​I guess now that I thought about it a little longer I'm questioning the need for this. Literally every single coin from an Islamic state or coin with an AH date on it has the same issue but the "translation" from AH to AD or AD to AH for every other coin in the catalog is just the year that makes up the majority of days. Why do these coins need an additional explanation? For these four coins we know the mint date is 2009. The "translated" AH date should just be 1430 to be consistent with the thousands of other similar coins.

​Totally agree. When the exact date is not on the coin (like on those Algerian coins) we can never know which days/months the coins are struck. We can only guess and the best assumption we can make is to assign it to the year with the majority of days, even if theoretically this can be completely wrong and all the coins are struck in the year with the minority of days. Since we also never can be sure the coins are effectively struck in two different corresponding years it doesn't make much sense to mention both theoretically possible years.

Ah...of course. You can add new dates but can't change an existing one. That's probably a good thing.

Verweis : "Sjoelund"​COULD NOT change the wrong 1377 in the year line to 2009, no access possible!

​A master referee or catalog administrator can. A mistake in the catalog must always be fixable.

In comments:


The coin has the year of 2009AD.
The death of the prophet happened in 632AD which is 1377 Gregorian years ago.
632 + 1377 = 2009
There is thus no HIJRI year on the coin


in the year line : the year should be 2009

Hi,

I've made the CR for the first 4 coins, but without any change of the locked date 1377!

Here are the next two coins



Please verify them before I do more? Thanks

Looks good to me. No issues.

So I have made all 6 CR, but there is no referee for Libya

I'm sure everything will be fine one day

Hello!

I have just took notice.

Calendar on those coins is not set to Hijri but as Iranian-Persian. I would say this is wrong as well right?

But it is also not gregorian calendar, as requested. We have to solve this, but those requests are not perfect way.

Let me reconsider. You are actually right.

What happened to https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18483.html ?

Year 2009 (2571)
CalendarIslamic (Hijri)

Forgot to switch calendars.

Thank you, Jarcek.

Does anybody know why in the SCWC the 2009 coin is marked as MD1377, what is the MD? Heve looked for it, but found nothing....

Thank you, Jarcek.

Does anybody know why in the SCWC the 2009 coin is marked as MD1377, what is the MD? Have looked for it, but found nothing....

Mohammed Death 1377
is my guess

Sounds OK, although not documented, thanks.

There doesn't seem to be an officially used calender which uses the death date.
Are there any more coins other then those 4?
If it's just the four I would put the calendar to unknown 1377 changing the Gregorian to 2009 so you get 1377 (2009) then put a sentence that the death of the prophet Mohammed or something is used as a calendar.

There are actually six coins. 2001 and 2004 1/4 and 1/2 dirham. They are all referred to in this thread.

I only got access to my laptop yesterday, and I am just seeing this thread now.

I have done quite a bit of work regarding adding calendars, so I will make a request to add a calendar that works for these coins. While they might no be dated in an official calendar, there is still a dating system used, so I do not think it would be too difficult to get one added for these pieces.

The best name I can think of, to describe this dating system, is:

• Islamic - Muhammad posthumous era
  

But if anyone can think of a better name, please feel free to suggest alternatives.

There is NO MD dates,

what we're talking about here, is the Gregorian years after the death of the Prophet, which is NO date at all.

There is NO MD dates,

what we're talking about here, is the Gregorian years after the death of the Prophet, which is NO date at all, but a length of a period....

Verweis : "Sulfur"​I only got access to my laptop yesterday, and I am just seeing this thread now.
​
​I have done quite a bit of work regarding adding calendars, so I will make a request to add a calendar that works for these coins. While they might no be dated in an official calendar, there is still a dating system used, so I do not think it would be too difficult to get one added for these pieces.
​
​The best name I can think of, to describe this dating system, is:
​

• Islamic - Muhammad posthumous era
  ​
  

​
​But if anyone can think of a better name, please feel free to suggest alternatives.

​Forget it, it's not a calendar at all, but the Greogorain years after the death of the Prophet, which can only have a Gregorian as a result. Is that clear?

No, we are not talking about the Gregorian years after the death of Muhammad--we are talking about the number of years after the death of Muhammad (which is a non-Gregorian system).

Under places like China or Japan, we have many era calendars--for example, take the Duanping era. The coins themselves specify they were minted in Year 1 of the Duanping era, meaning year 1234, and while that is not necessarily a calendar, it is definitely a dating system that was used on coins (it was used only on two types, but the number of types is irrelevant here).

By your logic, for the Duanping era, you could say it is only 1 Gregorian year after the start of the Duanping era, meaning no era-based dating systems should be included at all. And by that same logic, the Chinese republican calendar (which seems to be an official calendar) should also not be included, as Year 1 of that calendar is only 1 Gregorian year after the start of the Republic. And none of that seems right to me.

So actual calendars are acceptable (like the Chinese republican), as are era-based dating systems. And the system in question would work as a posthumous era, so I believe it should also be included.

And even more importantly, I think it should be included for the sake of the 2001 coins:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces10225.html

Nowhere on the above coin does the Gregorian date 2001 appear; however, the Year 1369 does appear. And so, if someone is trying to find this coin using the year that appears on it, they will not get the results they need. Adding this era will only help search for the relevant coins, which is not a bad thing.

the official Libyan calendar in effect since year 2000 was a solar calendar with the same number of days as the Gregorian calendar. The numbers of months and days are therefore the same, only the number of the year changes, since this calendar begins with the death of the prophet Muhammad.
Muammar Gaddafi tries several times to spread his calendar to other countries without success.

This is actually an official calendar, a bit like on 1976 when Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi changed the origin of the iranian calendar to the beginning of Cyrus the Great's reign as its first year, rather than the Hijra of Muhammad. Overnight, the year changed from 1355 to 2535. This change only lasted until the Iranian revolution in 1979, at which time the calendar reverted to Solar Hijri.

Note that since coming to power on 1969, Gaddafi changes four times the libyan official calendar

Thanks, that's good to know.

Just to update this thread: a calendar called "Islamic - Muhammad posthumous era" has been added.

Regarding ALL non-Gregorian calendars, there should be TWO Gregorian years stated in Numista, since there is not exact overlapping of the calendars!

Verweis : "Dejan"​Regarding ALL non-Gregorian calendars, there should be TWO Gregorian years stated in Numista, since there is not exact overlapping of the calendars!

​The Gregorian calendar also started on different days in different parts of the world. For example, in England, the New Year started on 25 March until 1750/1.

Furthermore, we also use the Gregorian calendar on Numista for countries that didn't use it at the time. For example, Greece, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. used the Julian calendar until the 20th century.

So the year 1922 on this coin corresponds to 14 January 1922 - 13 January 1923 in what we now call the proleptic Gregorian calendar.
Similarly, 1600 on this coin corresponds to 25 March 1600 - 24 March 1601 Julian calendar (edit: 4 April 1600 - 3 April 1601 proleptic Gregorian).