Swapping etiquette

What actions do you consider proper, improper, bold or just plain rude when proposing or negotiating swaps and trades? What are, or should be some of the basic rules to follow? Or some of the do's and dont's that should be followed to complete a smooth swap? What is a good code of conduct? Bad communication, no description of condition or value, fairness in selecting coins equal to those being offered, are just 3 peeves that come to my mind.     
  

I hate bad communication. That is my peeve.

Hi Harry,

 you have pointed out something pertinent. I find you have 517 coins in your swap list. I create a swap and click on all the 517 coins, and one fine morning you see a new swap offered. You look into my swap list and find I have 12 coins in my swap list and all of them are just trash. How do you feel then? I think this is the height of rudeness. What do you think?

Regards

pjthayil That is a very real scenario.. What do I think? I would consider it not only rude but also an insult. And a civilized response to that swap would require the patience of a saint.

Hi Harry,

 the world is always short of saints. Try to be one. If you have already reached that level, inform me immediately. I shall immediately inform Vatican, with some strong recommendation; remember the eligibility criterion - only if you are a Catholic. lol.

Regards

I tend to be a bit more charitable and put it down to youth and inexperience rather than rudeness. I may be charming, urbane, witty and eloquent today but when I think back to my late teens and early 20's I have to admit I was a prize jerk.

Some time ago I removed all the silver coins I had to trade because I was getting literally dozens of swap requests every week from people with a few dozen worthless coins. I tried to do the well-mannered thing and politely decline, but some people take that as a deep personal insult. I don't have the time or inclination to argue over such things so now I just ignore any silly proposals. I've tried listing silver coins in a spreadsheet for anyone wanting to swap them but it's not very effective so I'm slowly adding them back into my swap list.

I've also made it plain that I don't wish to trade coins outside of North America and occassionally Canada and Northern Europe because of the US postage rates. It makes no sense for an American collector to pay $30 or more to ship $20 worth of coins. It effectively means that I'm paying $10 to give away coins. I've been called xenophobic and racist - it's just not worth the drama. Once again, as there are people who won't accept a polite "no thank you", I ignore these requests.

I also tend to move at a glacial speed due mostly to health issues which mean I disappear for days on end. I have to say that without exception, every single member here has been outstandingly patient in this regard.

Drama and rudeness are the two things I abhor most of all. Thankfully Numista is largely free of both.

Iceberg! Iceberg! (A bit of drama for Phil.) It is just as well we get on! The reason most people are here is to collect coins and/or catalogue their collection. So, respect of the love that we have on our hobby. When I get a swap I don't like the look of, I tell people politely that I wouldn't like to swap...this usually gets a polite reply accepting my decision and I leave them to cancel the swap. Sometimes I send a message explaining why I don't want to swap and cancel it myself. Communication is really important and I think you have to build up a relationship with a person on here: Hence my joke with Phil on here. We share an interest of Swiss coins and we are looking to exchange again to get more coin date gaps filled. It takes time to set up a swap, mutual happiness is important: don't be forced into a swap!

I COIN WANT NOW!


I have approached a handful of members over the last year with trade inquiries. A couple ignored me, a couple politely declined, and a couple are in the works. I never check off someone's coins without establishing communication first. Introducing yourself and asking first, should be a part of general life etiquette, not just netiquette.

Don't get me started on the army of morons roaming our streets with their face glued to their "stupidphone". Too often, it ends with tears and flowers at the corner of an intersection.

Having done my first swap, what I actually did was to do a simple Excel totalling the approximate value of the coins for exchange (using a site like worldcoingallery), to ensure it was a fair deal.

If I were to put up more valuable coins for swap, I would indicate the approx value as a comment, so that the swapper is aware of it.

Clear communication of expectations helps, and in the worst case, turn down a swap offer if you feel the swap makes you shortchanged, or other reasons like not wanting to post a large number of coins to a far away country

Great question Harry, I really do think it's down to how the individual handles him/herself and whether they have morals or not.. so far I've received swap offers with some great coins in but unfortunately they don't interest me and people get that. But I have came across members trying to get more out of me than my selection warrants.. and some that seem arrogant or generally arsey, but then being a man of the world I understand that this is not always the case, and can come simply by how the person communicates, where they are from, and if they speak the language well. There is a lot to be desired in this world but generally I find this forum to be the best I've ever been on - I know we have 20,000 members but it seems the French forum takes up a lot of those, and we tend to have a group of regular posters whom we develop relationships with, and there are also members who have thousands of coins and little to no posts. This doesn't mean they are necessarily bad people out to scam, but they are here to swap and catalogue.   Overall it's a great place !

Greetings.

Excellent responses everyone. I am in complete agreement, and I can relate to everything I've read. And quite a few of the points that were mentioned, things like maturity, lack of experience and ethics, all stand out in my mind as possible reasons why a potential swap could fall apart quickly. Some of the examples given sound pretty common as far as being something a swapper will eventually encounter. So it's good to hear the best ways to deal with those situations.

And aside from the healthful benefits of venting of our frustrations, this can also be used as a learning tool. What everything I read so far boils down to is simply; good and clear communication is the key to good negotiations. It is true that perception is everything. So I would say that this is a topic of great relevance and importance, I dare say it is probably as relevant and important as the topic of cheaters.    

Regards

Verweis : harry213What actions do you consider proper, improper, bold or just plain rude when proposing or negotiating swaps and trades? What are, or should be some of the basic rules to follow? Or some of the do's and dont's that should be followed to complete a smooth swap? What is a good code of conduct? Bad communication, no description of condition or value, fairness in selecting coins equal to those being offered, are just 3 peeves that come to my mind.

Hello, harry213, if you want to know the etiquette of swapping, have a look at my exchange list, send me a swap offer and I will teach you everything I know

Haha good morning radrick007,
 Sounds like a splendid idea. You are aware that part of the etiquette involves shipping? So I believe  it is customary for the teacher to ship the student a small sample package of coins. You know, kind of demonstrate proper packaging and stuff..

Verweis : pnightingaleSome time ago I removed all the silver coins I had to trade because I was getting literally dozens of swap requests every week from people with a few dozen worthless coins.

I did the same thing. But now I have put them back in my list because I am willing to trade them.
I tell people like the ones you are referring to that I only swap silver for silver, that sentiment is also stated in my profile.
In regards to the high cost of postage, I send by 1st class only. Registered mail can often exceed the value of the coins. I would rather ship a replacement set if it goes missing. (Which is extremely rare.)
 

Verweis : Evelynn

Verweis : pnightingaleSome time ago I removed all the silver coins I had to trade because I was getting literally dozens of swap requests every week from people with a few dozen worthless coins.

I did the same thing. But now I have put them back in my list because I am willing to trade them.
I tell people like the ones you are referring to that I only swap silver for silver, that sentiment is also stated in my profile.
In regards to the high cost of postage, I send by 1st class only. Registered mail can often exceed the value of the coins. I would rather ship a replacement set if it goes missing. (Which is extremely rare.)
 

To be honest I don't mind swapping coins regardless of content. I think silver is the finest metal ever for coins due to the way it tones and ages but I'm equally fond of 19th century bronze and copper. I'd be more than happy to swap some modern junk silver for a nice QV penny from the earlier part of her reign.

I won't however be swapping it for a bunch of pocket change.

I'm right with you on the mailing costs though. I'd love to swap with some of our well established and respected members from India and Brazil but it doesn't make economic sense to do so.

Verweis : pnightingale

Verweis : Evelynn

Verweis : pnightingaleSome time ago I removed all the silver coins I had to trade because I was getting literally dozens of swap requests every week from people with a few dozen worthless coins.

I did the same thing. But now I have put them back in my list because I am willing to trade them.
I tell people like the ones you are referring to that I only swap silver for silver, that sentiment is also stated in my profile.
In regards to the high cost of postage, I send by 1st class only. Registered mail can often exceed the value of the coins. I would rather ship a replacement set if it goes missing. (Which is extremely rare.)
 

To be honest I don't mind swapping coins regardless of content. I think silver is the finest metal ever for coins due to the way it tones and ages but I'm equally fond of 19th century bronze and copper. I'd be more than happy to swap some modern junk silver for a nice QV penny from the earlier part of her reign.

I won't however be swapping it for a bunch of pocket change.

I'm right with you on the mailing costs though. I'd love to swap with some of our well established and respected members from India and Brazil but it doesn't make economic sense to do so.

My view is that silver or other semi precious coins and shipping are 2 things that will often spoil an otherwise good swap. Since both can be perceived differently... I removed the few silver coins I had, but am considering adding them back.. But just because a common silver dime is only worth $2 in silver doesn't mean I will swap it for a worn common $2 bronze coin. Though someone else may view them as equal their intrinsic value can be measured differently.. So you end up faced with the dichotomy of either hiding the semi precious coins you "want to trade", to avoid this problem, and end up missing out on potential swaps with people looking for those coins.. OR show the semi precious coins you want to swap, and then have someone get upset because you won't swap it, in a sense ruining it for them to the point where they won't even consider choosing something else. Even though there may be plenty of other possible swaps remaining. Kind of a lose/lose.
  

I understand, easily remedied - in your comments write special swap, or silver for silver

Ahh, yes good idea, for those of us that actually read the comments or pay attention to the detailed list of wishes written in the profile section ...... "the best laid plans of mice and men"... There should be a beginners guide written.

I made a start on one Harry but haven't had the energy to complete it. It covers primarily not getting fleeced.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic11106.html

Verweis : pnightingaleI made a start on one Harry but haven't had the energy to complete it. It covers primarily not getting fleeced.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic11106.html

Good work Phil, you've made a good start at it. And I understand about not having the energy to complete it. This is an undertaking that requires a collaborative effort, there's just too much for one person to cover. And just like the Numista catalog, it would require some tweaks and updates as things progress and develop. And I expect that some of the things outlined in one would require some participative decision making or at least a popular consensus.

But this is exactly the type of material that should be included in a swapping "guide". As I mentioned here once, the subject of swapping etiquette is as pertinent as that of cheaters.  Deviation from guidelines in the former, can be used as an indicator or red flag for the latter.  And one can certainly find a connection in the behavior between the two.

I have a question for everyone.

Some collectors collect coins by type and some by date. And if I have certain type of coin in my exchange list and I have 5 different years of it. Let's say

1990 1 pcs
1991 20 pcs
1992 20 pcs
1993 20 pcs
1994 2 pcs.

Then quite often so-called "type collectors"  choose 1990 or 1994. Have you guys noticed such a pattern? I find it weird. It is obvious that 1990 and 1994 should be a bit more rare that the others. not by value usually but by mintage. Is it important for type collector which year he will get? As I collect world coins by type also I will try to select most produced year or the coin that my swap partner has most. Other thing is that if he selects 1991 or 1992 or 1993 coin I could offer him coin with better quality as I have a chance to choose it. Another thing is that if I do not choose that "rare" coin then some collector who is collecting by year can select that in the future. And that makes two collectors happy instead of one! What do you think and how do you select coins?

Sven

Good point Svaan. I noticed that too, and sometimes did the same thing.
The way I think when I select the coins is:

1. Without knowing my swap partner well, I am going to assume that I might receive the lower grade coin among the duplicates;
2. Hence if I select, say 1991, 1992 or 1993, I am risking receiving the lowest 5% percentile;
3. On the other side, if selecting the 1990 coin, the chance that I will get a coin with better grade than the lower 5% is, well, 95%.

Although I usually send out the next best specimen at hand (the best one I would obviously save for my own collection) to my swap partner, this risk is alway something that is looming in my mind. I don't know if I am the only one with this mentality?

Verweis : harry213What actions do you consider proper, improper, bold or just plain rude when proposing or negotiating swaps and trades? What are, or should be some of the basic rules to follow? Or some of the do's and dont's that should be followed to complete a smooth swap? What is a good code of conduct? Bad communication, no description of condition or value, fairness in selecting coins equal to those being offered, are just 3 peeves that come to my mind.

Always be honest.

Verweis : rosemaniaGood point Svaan. I noticed that too, and sometimes did the same thing.
The way I think when I select the coins is:

1. Without knowing my swap partner well, I am going to assume that I might receive the lower grade coin among the duplicates;
2. Hence if I select, say 1991, 1992 or 1993, I am risking receiving the lowest 5% percentile;
3. On the other side, if selecting the 1990 coin, the chance that I will get a coin with better grade than the lower 5% is, well, 95%.

Although I usually send out the next best specimen at hand (the best one I would obviously save for my own collection) to my swap partner, this risk is alway something that is looming in my mind. I don't know if I am the only one with this mentality?

I know of at least  couple of "type collectors" who try to get the first year of issue for each KM#. That may account for some of the phenomona.

Of course if you swap based on Krause values the problem auto-corrects. Why would a type collector fill a gap with a scarce $10 coin when a common $1 is available.

Swap offers are still trickling in, most international ones I'm politely declining with an explanation or showing the cost of a 100g signature letter via Canada Post to their country. I've also sent out a handful of emails. I expected to hear NO or even F off, considering that my list is still pretty humble. I did not expect such a boorish lack of email acknowledgement. "C'est la vie", I guess?

I hate that people go strictly on cat value and don't value some of my coins as highly as I do.

one of the reasons I stopped putting up my coins for swaps when I first joined was I had someone interested in a Fiji 1942 florin I had for exchange.  

I suggested a coin from his swaps that was about the same silver weight.  I can't remember off hand what it was, but he sent back a message saying the cataloge value of his coin was double mine.  

I pointed out that he had contacted me, that I was just saying what I considered a fair exchange and that although the fijian florins only had a catalogue value of $7.50 in uncirculated, that the melt value of them was double the catalogue value and only 250,000 of them were minted making them pretty hard to get hold of, whereas his coin had a mintage of over 10 million.

He sent back a message basically laughing in my face and cancelled the swap.

Verweis : neilithicI hate that people go strictly on cat value and don't value some of my coins as highly as I do.

I'm just curious, are you doing the same to your fellow partners?  

Verweis : scceda

Verweis : neilithicI hate that people go strictly on cat value and don't value some of my coins as highly as I do.

I'm just curious, are you doing the same to your fellow partners?  

Nah, I don't seek out swaps.  I just list my coins and let them come to me.  I get pleanty of coins through trademe that I don't really need to swap.

I would like to add to this conversation that I have few coins, am interested in collection one from all countries  and that I do this for fun.  I know I have little to offer in return.  However, when I make an offer it is not an insult but a compliment.  You have a lot of coins and I most likely have none you want but I figure 1) there's no harm in asking and 2) maybe I do have something you want I don't recognize.

One large collector turned me down but sent me a few "trash" coins to get me started.  They were not "trash" to me and I was very appreciative.  Another sent me a note saying I had nothing for him now put perhaps in the future we might be able to work one out.  Someone else told me how to go about building up coin swapping reserves.  Usually I sit at the inbox for weeks hoping for a reply of some sort.

In the long run I have been very happy with this site.  I've had a couple rough experiences but trying to obtain world coins out in the real world is very expensive (I spent $74 dollars on 10 coins that according to the catalogue amounted to $7.40).  I like this site and have made some good swaps and contacts, I'd hate to see the large collector ruin it for the beginner like me.

Effigyjo