French notgeld banknotes sorting? [gelöst]

Hi everyone

I just noticed that we have 53 banknotes sorted as Notgeld in the catalogue, whereas we have 550 banknotes sorted just as “local banknotes” in the main section. Shouldn't these 550 go under Notgeld section as well?

I would be happy to do a batch of new issuers creation anytime :-)

This is the subject of this request.

This is the reply of the referee when I try to move 1 to Notgeld:

"Billet émis par la CDC sise à Angoulême et non pas par la Ville elle-même. Donc "État émetteur" = France. Règle appliquée pour l'ensemble des billets des Chambres de Commerce."

It is not true all “chambre de commerce” are under France: here an example of one in Notgeld
N#221212

I really feel we should be consistent between coins and banknotes regarding local issues. Those are Notgeld in my opinion, I'm not sure to understand why Chambres de commerce would change something here

“Les billets de nécessité ont été majoritairement émis par les Chambres de commerce, avec l’autorisation du gouvernement et par dérogation au privilège d’émission de la Banque de France. Le recours aux Chambres de commerce présentait un double avantage. Celui de la sécurité financière, du fait de leurs ressources propres mais également des dépôts de billets qu’elles étaient tenues de verser à la Banque de France en contrepartie de leurs émissions. Et celui de leur bonne connaissance de l’économie locale et donc des besoins effectifs en petite monnaie. Pendant la guerre de 1914-1918, plus d’une centaine de chambres de commerce ont ainsi émis des billets de nécessité. À ceux-ci, se sont ajoutées les émissions de nombreuses municipalités et de quelques sociétés industrielles. Ces billets, d’une valeur faciale de 50 centimes, 1 F, 2 F, parfois plus, étaient toutefois d’un usage relativement restreint, à l’intérieur du champ d’action de la chambre de commerce, de la municipalité, voire de la région considérée.”

“Notgeld banknotes were mostly issued by the Chambers of Commerce, with the authorization of the government and by derogation from the issuance privilege of the Banque de France. The use of Chambers of Commerce had a double advantage. That of financial security, due to their own resources but also to the deposits of banknotes that they were required to pay to the Banque de France in return for their issues. And that of their good knowledge of the local economy and therefore of the actual needs in small change. During the 1914-1918 war, more than a hundred chambers of commerce issued emergency notes. To these were added the emissions of many municipalities and some industrial companies. These notes, with a face value of 50 centimes, 1 F, 2 F, sometimes more, were however of relatively limited use, within the scope of action of the chamber of commerce, the municipality, or even of the region under consideration.”

Hello,
I agree we should aim at cataloguing these banknotes as we currently do for French notgeld. As they were intended for local usage, we should set the region or city as issuing authority. The Chambers of Commerce should be mentioned as issuing entities.

Compendium

It is not true all “chambre de commerce” are under France: here an example of one in Notgeld
N#221212

You don't need to convince me …

I just feel baffled when my request get rejected… I do feel that some referees are acting on their own.

Could we replace the name of the “Notgeld” section with something like “Towns, Cities and Regions”? It would hold the same coins but could also hold the locally issued notes. I've always found it odd to use a German term for coins and notes of other countries. This would bring these issues more into line with the way other sub-national issues are grouped.

Xavier

Hello,
I agree we should aim at cataloguing these banknotes as we currently do for French notgeld. As they were intended for local usage, we should set the region or city as issuing authority. The Chambers of Commerce should be mentioned as issuing entities.

Is that being addressed to the referee?

Yes, we talked inDM :-)

I don't know if there is a relation, but we currently have Promissory note in French notgeld.

My CR to move banknotes to coins are all rejected.

I just revised 3 out of the 20 pages of French banknote and was surprise to see that in lettering there is often comments and the printer name is neither mentioned in lettering neither in the page itself. Even when I made a correction to place the name of a printer as mention on the coin, it gets rejected as the referee wasn't sure about the spelling…

Move pages from France to Algeria get rejected.

Move pages from France to French notgeld get rejected.

Let me know if the title of this banknote and several others is correct?

Are we sure that all referees are knowledgeable about guidelines?

As I make CR and most of them are rejected, it starts to be frustrating.

Indomini16

I don't know if there is a relation, but we currently have Promissory note in French notgeld.

My CR to move banknotes to coins are all rejected.

I just revised 3 out of the 20 pages of French banknote and was surprise to see that in lettering there is often comments and the printer name is neither mentioned in lettering neither in the page itself. Even when I made a correction to place the name of a printer as mention on the coin, it gets rejected as the referee wasn't sure about the spelling…

Move pages from France to Algeria get rejected.

Move pages from France to French notgeld get rejected.

Let me know if the title of this banknote and several others is correct?

 

Are we sure that all referees are knowledgeable about guidelines?

As I make CR and most of them are rejected, it starts to be frustrating.

Please, use the Appeal function if needed :-)

Compendium

Please, use the Appeal function if needed :-)

I do but it's still frustrating!

And even if I do so, are newbies as patient as I do?

Referee should know the guideline more than I do and not the other way around!

Is that topic that  hard to sort out?

Indomini16

Is that topic that  hard to sort out?

I don't understand your question. Do you complain about time to process appeals?

Compendium

I don't understand your question. Do you complain about time to process appeals?

Not at all, just asking about the initial thread topic, is that not obvious that it should move those notes to notgeld?

I know we are all volontere so I can wait for the appeal or CR, that's never a topic.

Oh ok ! I just sent a batch of CR for the entire departement of Gers : https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=france&r=Chambre+de+commerce+d%27Auch&ct=banknote&im1=&im2=&tbb=y&tbc=y&tbl=y&tbt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=931&no=&v=&i=&b=&ib=&ie=&u=&a=&dg=&m=&f=&t=&t2=&mt=&g=&se=&d=&c=&wi=&sw=

But indeed if some good soul would continue I'll love it ! Also let me know please which issuer we'd miss (for instance I just created departement of Gers as issuer, because for now we only had it as a category of issuers)

Compendium

But indeed if some good soul would continue I'll love it ! Also let me know please which issuer we'd miss (for instance I just created departement of Gers as issuer, because for now we only had it as a category of issuers)

We will see what we can do 

Please help us :-)

Hello,

To classify the remaining 5/10/25/50 Centimes et 1/2/5/10/20 Franc banknotes, I would need the following underline lines:

-France

--Aisne, Ardennes & Marne, Departments of

---Aisne, Ardennes & Marne, Departments of

--Aisne, Department of

---Fresnoy-le-Grand, Commune of

---Guise, Commune of

---Grugies, Commune of

---Hauteville, Commune of

--Alliers, Department of

---Moulins & Lapalisse, Communes of

--Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, Department of

---Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, Department of

--Ardennes, Department of

---Sedan, Commune of

--Ariège, Department of

---Foix, Commune of

--Aube, Department of

---Troyes, Commune of

--Calvados, Department of

---Trouville-sur-Mer, Commune of

--Centre, Department of

---Centre, Department of

--Charente, Department of

---Cognac, Commune of

--Cher, Department of

---Bourges, Commune of

--Corrèze, Department of

---Corrèze, Department of

---Tulle, Commune of

---Tulle & Ussel, Communes of

--Côtes-d'Armor, Department of

---Côtes-d'Armor, Department of

--Creuse, Department of

---Creuse, Department of

--Dordogne, Department of

---Bergerac, Commune of

---Issigeac, Commune of

--Drôme, Department of

---Valence, Commune of

--Essonne, Department of

---Corbeil-Essones & Etampes, Communes of

---Yerres, Commune of

--Gard, Department of

---Nîmes, Commune of

--Gironde, Department of

---Libourne, Commune of

--Hauts-de-Seine, Department of

---Montrouge, Communes of

--Haute-Garonne, Department of

---Baziège, Communes of

---Bessières, Communes of

--Haute-Loire, Department of

---Le Puy-en-Velay, Communes of

--Haute-Saône, Department of

---Gray & Vesoul, Communes of

--Haute-Vienne, Department of

---Limoges, Communes of

--Indre-et-Loire, Department of

---Tours, Commune of

--Isère, Department of

---Grenoble, Commune of

---Vienne, Commune of

--Landes, Department of

---Mont-de-Marsan, Commune of

--Loire, Department of

---Roanne, Commune of

---Saint-Étienne, Commune of

--Loiret, Department of

---Orléans, Commune of

--Loiret & Loire-et-Cher, Departments of

---Orléans & Blois, Communes of

--Lot-et-Garonne, Department of

---Mézin, Commune of

--Lozère, Department of

---Mende, Commune of

--Maine-et-Loire, Department of

---Cholet, Commune of

--Manche, Department of

---Granville, Commune of

---Granville & Cherbourg, Communes of

--Mayenne, Department of

---Laval, Commune of

--Meuse, Department of

---Bar-le-Duc, Commune of

---Montmédy, Commune of

--Nord, Department of

---Cambrai, Communes of

---Fourmies, Communes of

---Roncq, Communes of

---Toufflers, Communes of

--Nord and Pas-de-Calais, Departments of

---Anzin,  Commune of

---Avesnes & Solesmes, Communes of

---Croix & Wasquehal, Communes of

--Oise, Department of

---Compiègne, Commune of

--Pas-de-Calais, Department of

---Boulogne-sur-Mer, Commune of

Note: "Pas-de-Calais, Department of" is twice on the list

--Pyrénées-Orientales, Department of

---Pyrénées-Orientales, Department of

--Rhône, Department of

---Tarare, Commune of

---Villefranche-sur-Saône, Commune of

--Saône-et-Loire, Department of

---Châlon-sur-Saône, Autun & Louhans, Communes of

--Sarthe, Department of

---Le Mans, Commune of

--Seine-Maritime, Department of

---Dieppe, Commune of

---Fécamp, Commune of

--Tarne, Department of

---Tarne, Department of

--Tarne-et-Garonne, Department of

---Montauban, Department of

--Val-d'Oise, Department of

---L'Isle-Adam, Commune of

--Vosges, Department of

---Vosges, Department of

---Cornimont, Commune of

---Saint-Dié-des-Vosges, Commune of

--Yonne, Department of

---Auxerre, Commune of

---Sens, Commune of

I think we said all Chambre de commerce issues were for the entire département, so i do not understand why you need new municipalities ?

Compendium

I think we said all Chambre de commerce issues were for the entire département, so i do not understand why you need new municipalities ?

I follow the same structure as for coins, example:

N#7548

And more in general.

Where will you put this one?

I was using this structure.

Ok the Grenoble one I would have put under Departement of Isère, not City of Grenoble.

But it was Kreutzer recommandations, and I disnt know it was not the case for existing chambres de commerce so…

in the case of the Grenoble one Isère isn’t mentioned anywhere on the note, so I prefer the current coin structure, it maybe a bit less accurate (I’m not convince) but it’s more user friendly.

It is quite sure that Chambre de commerce issued those notes not for one city only but for the département or infra-departement.

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monnaie_de_n%C3%A9cessit%C3%A9

A bit like “tribunal de lille” does not mean the judge only take cases from the city of Lille, but its entire jurisdiction.

But i agree copying coin structure may be more simple/clear. Lets keep chambre de commerce as issuing entity anyway.

Fine, but they are not all issues by CDC, you also have private bank issues like Chagué

Indomini16

--Aisne, Ardennes & Marne, Departments of

---Aisne, Ardennes & Marne, Departments of

 

--Aisne, Department of

---Fresnoy-le-Grand, Commune of

---Guise, Commune of

---Grugies, Commune of

---Hauteville, Commune of

 

--Alliers, Department of

---Moulins & Lapalisse, Communes of

 

--Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, Department of

---Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, Department of

 

--Ardennes, Department of

---Sedan, Commune of

 

--Ariège, Department of

---Foix, Commune of

 

--Aube, Department of

---Troyes, Commune of

 

--Calvados, Department of

---Trouville-sur-Mer, Commune of

 

--Centre, Department of

---Centre, Department of

 

--Charente, Department of

---Cognac, Commune of

 

--Cher, Department of

---Bourges, Commune of

 

--Corrèze, Department of

---Corrèze, Department of

---Tulle, Commune of

---Tulle & Ussel, Communes of

 

--Côtes-d'Armor, Department of

---Côtes-d'Armor, Department of

 

--Creuse, Department of

---Creuse, Department of

 

--Dordogne, Department of

---Bergerac, Commune of

---Issigeac, Commune of

 

--Drôme, Department of

---Valence, Commune of

 

--Essonne, Department of

---Corbeil-Essones & Etampes, Communes of

---Yerres, Commune of

 

--Gard, Department of

---Nîmes, Commune of

 

--Gironde, Department of

---Libourne, Commune of

 

--Hauts-de-Seine, Department of

---Montrouge, Communes of

 

--Haute-Garonne, Department of

---Baziège, Communes of

---Bessières, Communes of

 

--Haute-Loire, Department of

---Le Puy-en-Velay, Communes of

 

--Haute-Saône, Department of

---Gray & Vesoul, Communes of

 

--Haute-Vienne, Department of

---Limoges, Communes of

 

--Indre-et-Loire, Department of

---Tours, Commune of

 

--Isère, Department of

---Grenoble, Commune of

---Vienne, Commune of

 

--Landes, Department of

---Mont-de-Marsan, Commune of

 

--Loire, Department of

---Roanne, Commune of

---Saint-Étienne, Commune of

 

--Loiret, Department of

---Orléans, Commune of

 

--Loiret & Loire-et-Cher, Departments of

---Orléans & Blois, Communes of

 

--Lot-et-Garonne, Department of

---Mézin, Commune of

 

--Lozère, Department of

---Mende, Commune of

 

--Maine-et-Loire, Department of

---Cholet, Commune of

 

--Manche, Department of

---Granville, Commune of

---Granville & Cherbourg, Communes of

 

--Mayenne, Department of

---Laval, Commune of

 

--Meuse, Department of

---Bar-le-Duc, Commune of

---Montmédy, Commune of

 

--Nord, Department of

---Cambrai, Communes of

---Fourmies, Communes of

---Roncq, Communes of

---Toufflers, Communes of

 

--Nord and Pas-de-Calais, Departments of

---Anzin,  Commune of

---Avesnes & Solesmes, Communes of

---Croix & Wasquehal, Communes of

 

--Oise, Department of

---Compiègne, Commune of

 

--Pas-de-Calais, Department of

---Boulogne-sur-Mer, Commune of

 

--Pyrénées-Orientales, Department of

---Pyrénées-Orientales, Department of

 

--Rhône, Department of

---Tarare, Commune of

---Villefranche-sur-Saône, Commune of

 

--Saône-et-Loire, Department of

---Châlon-sur-Saône, Autun & Louhans, Communes of

 

--Sarthe, Department of

---Le Mans, Commune of

 

--Seine-Maritime, Department of

---Dieppe, Commune of

---Fécamp, Commune of

 

--Tarne, Department of

---Tarne, Department of

 

--Tarne-et-Garonne, Department of

---Montauban, Department of

 

--Val-d'Oise, Department of

---L'Isle-Adam, Commune of

 

--Vosges, Department of

---Vosges, Department of

---Cornimont, Commune of

---Saint-Dié-des-Vosges, Commune of

 

--Yonne, Department of

---Auxerre, Commune of

---Sens, Commune of

With this 72 new departments or communes, it would be ok.

yeah I'll work on it

@indomini can you help ? I prepared everything in this doc, last missing stuff is to finish to complete column U with wikidata codes…
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DE0MAHSElWZvgJ6Sh3gY6NAvZoRvyoKi9AUE9HyRxCE/edit#gid=2051571819

Also I didn't put “Département du Centre” beacuse I don't know what it is ? Could you provide an example ?

Compendium

Also I didn't put “Département du Centre” beacuse I don't know what it is ? Could you provide an example ?

You did well, I just didn't pay attention, I was sure it was a department close to Indre … My mistake

It was for these notes.

Done for the Wiki codes.

I'll also need the Arrondissement de Sedan for this note.

It should goes under Ardennes, Department of

Thanks, all are imported :)
you can wait 24 hours (for ruling authorities to appear), then add entries in them, then wait 24 hours and all should be OK

Few easy questions;

1 - why do we have:

France › French notgeld › Angoulême, Commune of

and not:

France › French notgeld› Charente, Department of › Angoulême, Commune of

2- For this one, the currency should be Franc (1795-1959) but it's not on the list …

3 - A tipo error below:

France › French notgeld › Bas-Rhein, Department of 

Should be:

France › French notgeld › Bas-Rhin, Department of 

4 - We should rename this one:

France › French notgeld › Basses-Pyrénées, Department of 

into:

France › French notgeld › Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Department of 

5 - We may want to rename:

France › French notgeld › Haut-Rhin, Department of › Thann (Haut-Rhin), Commune of

imto:

France › French notgeld › Haut-Rhin, Department of › Thann, Commune of

6 -  why do we have:

France › French notgeld › Chateauroux, Commune of

and not:

France › French notgeld› Indre, Department of › Châteauroux, Commune of

All fixed, thanks ! (2 was probably linked to 1)

1 - As we have:

France › French notgeld › Provence, Region of

Can we create:

France › French notgeld › Centre-Val de Loire, Region of

2 - We may have to change:

France › French notgeld › Seine, Department of › Paris, Commune of

into

France › French notgeld › Paris, Department of › Paris, Commune of

3 - I propose to change:

France › French notgeld › Toulon, Commune of

into:

France › French notgeld › Var, Department of › Toulon, Commune of

4 - A small tipo change:

France › French notgeld › Vendee, Department of

into:

France › French notgeld › Vendée, Department of

5 - It may be convenient to rename:

France › French notgeld › Provence, Region of

into:

France › French notgeld › Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Region of

Done except 1: do we have entries for it?

Compendium

Done except 1: do we have entries for it?

1 - 3 ;-)

I had some troubles to figure out like 10 entries and these ones are part of it.

2 - By the way you are missing in Belgium Notgeld the enty:

Luingne, City of

For:

5 Centimes - Commune of Luingne [Hainaut] - Belgium – Numista

3 - A small tipo adjustment needed (my bad):

--Saône-et-Loire, Department of, Chalon-sur-Saône, Autun & Louhans, Communes of

4 - In the upper request I can't find:

--Isère, Department of

---Vienne, Commune of

1. Done

2. Luingne is now part of Mouscron apparently  

3. Done

4. Done

Thanks for all!

I missed one:

--Côtes-d'Armor, Department of

---Saint-Brieuc, Commune of

Done :-)

For the banknotes below, I can't place the currency Franc (1795-1959):

N#243614

N#332138

N#332264

N#332265

N#298745

N#346187

N#335758

Can you fix it?

Also, why do we have a date from 1914-1925 for the Franc on this section, it should also be Franc (1795-1959).

1914 to 1925 is the date range for French Notgeld notes.

Of course, the constitutional period is French Third Republic (1870-1940).

Aidan.