A Portuguese silver coin, originally of the value of a crown: the currency of Portugal until the adoption of the euro in January 1999 (see Euro n.2 1a), ceasing to be legal tender after the introduction of the euro coins and banknotes in 2002. Also applied to other former coins, gold or silver, in Spain, Portugal, and Spanish America.
2. A monetary unit equal to one-hundredth of the standard monetary unit of Spain; spec. a monetary unit equal to one-hundredth of a peseta; a coin of this value. Now historical.Prior to the adoption of the peseta, centimo was used to denote one-hundredth of the decimalized real and subsequently one-hundredth of an escudo. Centimo coins were withdrawn from circulation in Spain in 1983.
P.S.: Removed the proposed change in English
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
Why not leave them as they are? The only modifications I can see that are required are the addition of the proper accents for Céntimos and Milésimas. To suggest calling this currency “écu” in French is ridiculous. Next somone will want to call it “shield” in English. The real names of currencies must be used to avoid confusion.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
“All currencies are listed in English in the database, according to the main listings (not alternative forms) of Oxford English Dictionary and Wiktionary.com.”
Milesima is not in OED, but is in Wiktionary. Thousandth is in both. The rationale made by the author of that paragraph of the Guidelines was: “My idea behind this paragraph is to use OED as the primary source. However, OED is not freely accessible, so Wiktionary is an accessible alternative. When there are conflicts between these sources, I think the OED should take precedence.” (stratocaster)
ceh2019
To suggest calling this currency “écu” in French is ridiculous. Next somone will want to call it “shield” in English. The real names of currencies must be used to avoid confusion.
Shield has no meaning of coin, except as an alternative obsolete form of French écu.
If request like this are a consequence of changes to the guidelines, the guidelines need changing back. We cannot place ourselves in a situation where a foreign term is used to replace the real denomination. We can all see that no Spanish coin has ever used the denominations “thousandth”, “centime” or “écu”, so we can't have guidelines that even suggest such terms be used.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
In practical terms, the new English proposal will only cause confusion. When two English speaking Numismatists or coin collectors discuss N#23118 they would says “Milesimas” not “Thousandths”. When a coin collector labels or catalogs the coin they would write or type “Milesimas” not “Thousandths”.
I also don't find support for the change in the guidelines. The OED and Wiktionary are great for deciding between alternate translations for currency units they cover, but in this case there is no “main listing” for “Milesimas” in the OED. Since the OED doesn't cover the term I don't see how the OED can be used at all for these currency definition. The OED doesn't says “milesimas == thousandths”. On the other hand Wiktionary does say that “milesima” and “milesimas” are English. The guidelines say to use Wiktionary, and the proposed change rejects the Wiktionary listings.
(The Wiktionary definitions are recent, from 30 January 2023. But that doesn't change the guidelines, or how coin collectors would talk about the coin.)
I expect the same situations occur in French and that saying “écu” for an “escudo” coin would cause strange looks. Also, the French guidelines don't give a language reference for currency names so I'm not sure what the justification for the French language change is.
Editing to add: I only have the 1987 OED. Could someone with access to the OED web site please comment on the current state?
My 1987 OED doesn't have definitions for cenimo or centimos. Based on the theory of this proposal all uses of “Centimos” in Numista currency definitions should be replaced by “hundredths”. Does anyone support that change?
I prefer our Guidelines, “the name of the currency in English (and if possible also in French and Spanish)”
The denomination of the Turkish currency is lira. Lirasi only appears when it follows the word Turk on banknotes. Various transliterations exist for рубль, we need to choose the most appropriate. None of these issues are hard to resolve, whereas the new guidelines will create endless arguments about what does or does not constitute an English or French name for something that is neither English nor French.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Editing to add: I only have the 1987 OED. Could someone with access to the OED web site please comment on the current state?
The current definitions are in my first post. I have online access to OED through a local library. If you want to see any other word, I can paste it here.
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
Editing to add: I only have the 1987 OED. Could someone with access to the OED web site please comment on the current state?
The current definitions are in my first post. I have online access to OED through a local library. If you want to see any other word, I can paste it here.
Thank you for pointing out the currency definitions in the first post. And also thank you for suggesting library access – I can't get to the OED my my local library, but I can get access to a library in a larger city that has OED access.
As expected Milesimas isn't in the OED. But when I look up “Thousandths” in the OED there is no definition of it as a unit in any currency. And, as I pointed out above, Milesimas is listed in Wiktionary as an English noun for a Spanish currency unit.
It seems to me that using a word already defined (and understandable) is better than making up a new currency unit term.
And thanks again for pointing me in the direction of on-line OED access. I will have other uses for that.
That's certainly better. What about the French terms? Surely if thousandth is out, écu and centime are too?
Let's see the Guidelines in French
“le nom de la devise en français (et si possible également en anglais et en espagnol)”
and in English
“the name of the currency in English (and if possible also in French and Spanish)
All currencies are listed in English in the database, according to the main listings (not alternative forms) of Oxford English Dictionary and Wiktionary.com.”
The paragraph about OED/Wiktionary is not in the French side. Wiktionary looks a good reference for French words, but it is not forced by Guidelines.
Words found in fr.wiktionary
écu: 3. (Numismatique) Monnaie d’or ou d’argent frappée aux armes du souverain qui l’émettait. escudo: 1. Nom de différentes pièces de monnaie étrangères d’Amérique latine.
centime: 3. (Par extension) Pièce de valeur faciale de un centime.
cent: 3. (Postposé) Centième, 100e, dont l’ordre est de 100.
better definition in wikipedia: Le cent est l'unité monétaire divisionnelle de plusieurs pays. Il vaut 1/100 de l'unité monétaire principale.
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
These French definitions expose one of the many problems caused by these guidelines. The definition of escudo is wrong, since it omits any mention of the historical Portuguese and Spanish currencies. Lexicographers are not numismatists and we shouldn't expect them to know the proper names of coins and denominations. We have the evidence in front of us that Spain used the escudo in the 1860s and we should stop pretending that what's written on the coins and notes doesn't matter. There is no benefit in using a foreign name such as écu, so why does anyone even try?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Status geändert zu Abgelehnt(Compendium, 20 Aug. 2023, 19:56)
