Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) Coinage [gelöst]

Hello all,

With the pending dissolution of the Republic of Artsakh, I believe it is time to finally settle the status of these coins and banknotes.

1. Numista currently lists seven varieties of coins and two banknotes as circulating. Were these coins officially issued by the Republic? If so, were they ever released into circulation?
2. There are an additional 44 non-circulating issues listed. Were these released by the government or are they fantasy issues?
3. There are eight “fantasy” pieces listed in exonumia, despite all but one possessing the same dimensions as the other coinage. Additionally, they are assigned Krause numbers. Are these coins truly fantasy issues?

Thank you all for your time and attention,

Theodore

A bit early to know what will change, for the moment it's only a cease-fire, I believe?

Hi Some_Nerd, I think I can only answer the Point 1, providing an image of the Ministry of Finance and Economy of the Republic of Artsakh, so I believe that at least the 2004 coins and those two 2 and 10 Dram banknotes are official and circulating currency.

https://minfin-nkr.am/?section=gallery/index

For the Point 3, this is from Wikipedia:

“Two commemorative coins were issued in 2003, while seven different coins have also been issued, all dated 2004.^[2] They are two aluminum 50 luma coins featuring a horse and a leaping antelope, three aluminum 1 dram coins featuring a wildcat, a pheasant and St. Gregory the Illuminator, two aluminum-bronze 5 dram coins featuring the Ghazanchetsots Cathedral in the town of Shushi and the We Are Our Mountains monument right outside Stepanakert, and two aluminum 1000 dram coins featuring Lake Van and Kevork Chavush. A new series of coins was issued in 2013, and consists of two 50 luma coins featuring a horse and antelope, three 1 dram coins depicting a leopard, wolf and pheasant and two five dram coins showing a bear and a capricorn.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsakh_dram

For point 1:

There is a comment on the 2 and 10 Dram banknotes that makes me suspicious about whether any “circulating” issues ever entered the region.

“This note was printed by Österreichische Staatsdruckerei (Austria State Printing House), on order from Educational Coin Company, a numismatic wholesale firm, based in Highland, New York, working in conjunction with the government of the Nargono-Karabakh Republic (now known as the Republic of Artsakh). This note, along with the related coins, were produced primarily for sale to collectors, as well as to garner international publicity and assert a national identity.”

For point 3:

The citation on the Wikipedia article only discusses the 2004 issue.

Here in Spain we have a phrase that says: we are all innocent until proven otherwise. 

For me, the same thing happens with coins. Taking into account that we have already been able to verify on the Ministry of Finance website that the Artsakh Dram is the official currency of this "State", all these currencies should be in the coin/banknote catalog (until proven otherwise). Can anyone prove that the coins listed in Exonumia are Fantasy issues? If not, they should go to the coin catalog.

I think that what remains pending (in my opinion) to be able to verify is whether any of these coins and banknotes (basically those described on the Ministry of Finance's website) were really in circulation.

Many times in Numista I have found the opposite criterion, the pieces belong to Exonumia until we can verify if they are "official" (even when those pieces had KM and were issued by an official Agency of a State or with its permission)

In short, it is a question of difference in criteria, all equally valid. What is curious, as Some_Nerd comments, is that the small value coins from 2004 are in the coin catalog, and the 2013 coins with the same values ​​and characteristics are in Exonumia. If no one can prove why they are there, for me all the 2013 coins should be moved to the main catalog.

Some_Nerd

Hello all,

 

With the pending dissolution of the Republic of Artsakh, I believe it is time to finally settle the status of these coins and banknotes.

 

1. Numista currently lists seven varieties of coins and two banknotes as circulating. Were these coins officially issued by the Republic? If so, were they ever released into circulation?
2. There are an additional 44 non-circulating issues listed. Were these released by the government or are they fantasy issues?
3. There are eight “fantasy” pieces listed in exonumia, despite all but one possessing the same dimensions as the other coinage. Additionally, they are assigned Krause numbers. Are these coins truly fantasy issues?

 

 

 

Thank you all for your time and attention,

Theodore

Now Numista catalogue lists everything correctly

1. They were officially issued as circulated coins, but has never been in circulation

2. They are goverment approved. Maybe they shall be checked coin by coin, bu I don't know the catalogue that may help

3. These are fantasy issues made in China without any approval from the Goverment for sale to collectors.  

Grinya

Some_Nerd

Hello all,

 

With the pending dissolution of the Republic of Artsakh, I believe it is time to finally settle the status of these coins and banknotes.

 

1. Numista currently lists seven varieties of coins and two banknotes as circulating. Were these coins officially issued by the Republic? If so, were they ever released into circulation?
2. There are an additional 44 non-circulating issues listed. Were these released by the government or are they fantasy issues?
3. There are eight “fantasy” pieces listed in exonumia, despite all but one possessing the same dimensions as the other coinage. Additionally, they are assigned Krause numbers. Are these coins truly fantasy issues?

 

 

 

Thank you all for your time and attention,

Theodore

Now Numista catalogue lists everything correctly

1. They were officially issued as circulated coins, but has never been in circulation

2. They are goverment approved. Maybe they shall be checked coin by coin, bu I don't know the catalogue that may help

3. These are fantasy issues made in China without any approval from the Goverment for sale to collectors.  

 

 

Is there any document/publication supporting the point 3?

@oynbcn, there is no evidence supporting other point of view. So, this is like a general point of view among Russian numismatists.

1. These coins weren't listed on the official site of Ministry of Economy and finance (there were a link above)

2. https://worldcoinnews.blogspot.com/2013/10/nagorno-karabakh-2013-new-fauna-set.html

“We checked with the issuing authority that assisted us and they have no knowledge and did not approve the design.”

"ciscoins18:50

It is DEFINITELY a fantasy, made in China. I even know the company. (They contacted me to ask a question.)"

You can ask ciscoins, he has an account on Numista as I remember

Perhaps the worldcoinnews article should be linked in the comments.

On wiki claming the 2013 issue - if you dig deeper, you see that they are only citing some article, not official source and furthermore, wiki in Armenian does not show 2013 issue at all.

I will be marking their currency as ending in 2023 and issuer as extinct due to recent developments.

Grinya

@oynbcn, there is no evidence supporting other point of view. So, this is like a general point of view among Russian numismatists.

 

1. These coins weren't listed on the official site of Ministry of Economy and finance (there were a link above)

2. https://worldcoinnews.blogspot.com/2013/10/nagorno-karabakh-2013-new-fauna-set.html

“We checked with the issuing authority that assisted us and they have no knowledge and did not approve the design.”

"ciscoins18:50

It is DEFINITELY a fantasy, made in China. I even know the company. (They contacted me to ask a question.)"

 

You can ask ciscoins, he has an account on Numista as I remember

 

 

Hi Grinya, as I have mentioned before, for me a coin should be in the coin catalog until proven otherwise... and, obviously, you have demonstrated and documented it very well, thank you for all that research and information. Obviously, the 2013 coins must go to Exonumia.

Not sure where this is going to go, but we know for certain that the republic will cease to exist on the 1st of January 2024. 
So whatever happens the site will need to mention that it ended in 2024.

Jarcek

I will be marking their currency as ending in 2023 and issuer as extinct due to recent developments.

The current President of the Republic of Artsakh has signed a decree that all institutions of the Republic of Artsakh are in the process of being dissolved - & the Republic of Artsakh itself will be a dead country as from 1 January 2024.

The entire ethnic Armenian population are in the process of leaving for Armenia, as they don't trust the regime in Baku, which has spewed anti-Armenian propaganda for many years.

Aidan.

We do not have any introduction yet for Artsakh, so if anyone wants to write short introduction, feel free to do so. :) 

I have set issuer as non-existing, and added an end date for its currency.

During my visit to the Republic of Artsakh in 2019, the main currency that was used (from what I remember) was the Armenian dram. I don't remember if I ever saw the Artsakh dram being in use but I definitely remember paying in Armenian dram. I do have the 2004 set and the fantasy 2013 set of the Artsakh dram in my collection. I am going to have to ask my friend who used to live in Shushi if he has ever used them, though I don't think now is an appropriate time to ask.

I recall having looked it up a while ago, and at the time I did find some vague evidence that the banknotes maybe circulated, but nothing for the coins.

Can't find it now; might have been just that one article saying “yes we put them into circulation”, but that mentioned the coins too…

Note that in 2004, the Armenian dram, and by extension the Artsakh dram, traded at about 500 to one US dollar (rising a little in 2005, but not much). In other words, the highest denomination of Artsakh banknotes corresponded to 2 cents US (2.4 cents in September 2005, when they were supposedly introduced), and the highest denomination of Artsakh coins corresponded to 1 cent US (1.2 cents in Sep 2005).

This means that any actual circulation must have been limited; presumably prices in Nagorno-Karabakh were much lower than in USA, but even then there wouldn't have been much purchasing power.

In other words, being very generous with purchasing power parity, it would be the monetary equivalent of a breakaway republic from the USA introducing local dimes, nickels, cents, and half-cents, but nothing larger, and keeping US coinage legal tender. You wouldn't see a lot of use for the local money.

…OK, in the USA you would, because this had actually happened IOTL with sales tax tokens. AFAICT Artsakh did not have sales tax, or at least not separately from the listed prices.

I will close this in absence of any other information that the ministry website. If anyone comes with more information, I will be glad to reopen this.

Could we get the Numista Robot to mark these coins as demonetized on 1-1-2024?

It is done.

Will this happening from today's news change anything?

https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20231222-nagorno-karabakh-dissolution-not-valid-says-armenian-separatist-leader

I do not think so.

The Republic of Artsakh has been officially dissolved. Therefore, the country should be listed as a subissuer under Azerbaijan.

Some_Nerd

The Republic of Artsakh has been officially dissolved. Therefore, the country should be listed as a subissuer under Azerbaijan.

Why would the dissolvement of Artsakh change the listing? If it wasn't a subissuer under Azerbaijan before, I don't see why it would become one now.

I would call it to recent to move.

Anyway, country list should be rather left as it is until we figure out whether we want any change to its logic.

Here is again a kind of general ruling is needed. I beleive historical issues shall prevail over geographical and Armenian state must not be placed under Azerbaijan. But unfortunately this logic doesn't work on Numista last time

As someone who hasn't kept up with the politics around issuers, this response is quite bizarre to me. There is a country in the catalog (Artsakh) that another country has annexed (Azerbaijan). The dissolution of the republic was merely a formality, as less than 1% of the original population remained.

Why are we not moving it?

Some_Nerd

As someone who hasn't kept up with the politics around issuers, this response is quite bizarre to me. There is a country in the catalog (Artsakh) that another country has annexed (Azerbaijan). The dissolution of the republic was merely a formality, as less than 1% of the original population remained.

 

Why are we not moving it?

Because it has never been a part of Azerbaijan, that's why we shouldn't move it. If Taiwan would cease to exist at a point, we're not going to move that to China, are we? And if Russia manages to take Ukraine, are we going to move that to Russia as well?

smvdbrink

Because it has never been a part of Azerbaijan, that's why we shouldn't move it. If Taiwan would cease to exist at a point, we're not going to move that to China, are we? And if Russia manages to take Ukraine, are we going to move that to Russia as well?

We've been doing that for countries all the time. There are many examples of short-lived nations being moved to their current nation. North and South Vietnam under Vietnam, Biafra under Nigeria, Katanga under the Congo, Tibet under China, East Germany under Germany, and even Hawaii under the United States. This would not be singling out Artsakh, as this is standard protocol.

Because standard protocol is nonsense for some of the issuers. Why don't you move Tilsit and Pillau to Russia? And, e.g., Caffa Moncastro to Ukraine and Phocaea to Turkey?

As I said, right now we should not move, we are currently thinking whether we should rethink issuer placement strategy.

Can we at least mark the thread as unsolved?

Why would we need to keep this thread opened? There is nothing to be done now.

Why this coin was put back as official and not as exonumia?
N#51116

Geison

Why this coin was put back as official and not as exonumia?
N#51116

 Seems someone put back as exonumia in the meantime.

I saw your earlier message, did that and forgot to reply, sorry.

The information I have is that Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) banknotes and coins did not actually circulate.

On Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Artsakh) we have that they used the Armenian Dram.

Artsakh Dram banknotes and coins were made as a way to finance the separatist government (similar to Abkhazia). That is why I understand that they are non-circulation banknotes and coins. There are also non-circulation commemorative coins.

Regarding whether or not it is considered exonomy, I understand that it would not be because it was an issue made by the government, although for a financing purpose and not for common circulation, and that the criteria that define exonomy is that it is a non-governmental/legal issue.