Azores or Madeira?

Hello, 

About:

N#37451

N#39163

This two coins appear as Madeira, and there is the comment:

Until recently, this series was considered to be from the Azores.
Studies by Engº Trigueiros based on documentation from the Casa da Moeda and the Civil Government of Funchal concluded, in 2019, that this series never circulated in the Azores but rather in Madeira

But in this link with the resume of the more actual book (2023) from the same Engº Trigueiros, it says they never circulated in Madeira.

https://www.arquipelagos.pt/imagem/nova-historia-da-moeda-insulana-1750-1932-de-antonio-miguel-trigueiros-ponta-delgada-letras-lavadas-abril-de-2023-ilha-de-sao-miguel-acores-2/

From the book:

A moeda insulana era a moeda para uso nas ilhas dos Açores e da Madeira, mas que neste último arquipélago, ao que tenhamos conhecimento, nunca chegou a circular. 

(The insulana coin was made for be used on islands of Azores and Madeira, but in the last archipelago, as we know, never circulated)

So, Madeira or Azores?

If one book provides evidence for circulation on Madeira while the other book provides evidence of circulation on the Azoras, then apparently they have circulated on both archipelago.

From a logical perspective it is impossible to know for sure they never circulated on either archipelago, as nobody has access to every transaction that ever took place on both archipelago during the official time frame of using these these coins.

Unrelated but potentially relevant here:

In the time of the Belgian and Luxembourg franc coins being of equal size, material, weight and value, officially they were not to be accepted in Belgium. Many shops would refuse them when they would spot one, especially further away from Luxembourg, but in practice they circulated in Belgium anyway. As a child it would lead to great excitement getting a Luxembourg coin refused when I once unknowingly tried to spend one during a trip to Belgium, as to me that Luxembourg coin instantly became far more valuable than the Belgian ones. In a later stage Belgian shop owners just didn't care anymore and simply accepted them.

Sorry to revive this thread, but looks like this problem still exists.

Anyone did some research about that?

Shameless bump.

Looks like this question is still unsolved almost a year later.

Geison

Shameless bump.

 

Looks like this question is still unsolved almost a year later.

 

I have no expertise in this area, so I cannot comment on recent numismatic research.  Looking at sales of this coin on acsearch, I see that there is one Portuguese seller (Portuscalle) who calls it as Madeira (Portuscalle):

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12681448

All of the more established auction houses (Leiloes, Cayon, Tauler) call it as Azores, though the last two of these are older sales:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13065544

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12273768

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5553313

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4574524

@monge  do you have an opinion?

Hi,

Until (+/-) 2015 those coins were considered from Açores.

Mr. Antonio Miguel Trigueiros has studied the documentation from Lisboa Mint House and also from Madeira government and concluded that the coins were minted to Madeira and not to Azores.

The most important catalogue from Portugal, “Moedas Portuguesas e  do Território que é hoje Portugal”(2020) already reflects this discovery.

What can we conclude with this statement of Trigueiros in 2023?:

A moeda insulana era a moeda para uso nas ilhas dos Açores e da Madeira, mas que neste último arquipélago, ao que tenhamos conhecimento, nunca chegou a circular

https://www.arquipelagos.pt/imagem/nova-historia-da-moeda-insulana-1750-1932-de-antonio-miguel-trigueiros-ponta-delgada-letras-lavadas-abril-de-2023-ilha-de-sao-miguel-acores-2/

Bom dia,

Tive oportunidade de discutir o assunto com o autor e ele é peremptório:

A moeda é mesmo da Madeira pois há documentação na Casa da Moeda com as quantidades cunhadas assim como guias des remessa com as mesmas quantidades e endereçadas à Madeira. No Governo Civil da Madeira há também correspondência sobre o assunto.

Em nenhum lugar foi encontrada qualquer referência aos Açores.

A conclusão é que TALVEZ  tenha havido intenção de que a moeda fosse destinada às duas regiões mas nunca chegou aos Açores.