Modify denominations: Groat (Libra, from Principality of Catalonia) [gelöst]

This is part of another more general topic: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144509.html

Currency code: 3059 • catalonia_principality

There are 80 coins with these denominations.

The denomination to modify are these (according to these, 1 Groat = 3/40 Libras):
 

41021 • 3059 → ⅙ Groat - 1/80
27267 • 3059 → ¼ Groat - 3/160
29920 • 3059 → ⅓ Groat - 1/40
22476 • 3059 → ½ Groat - 3/80
12313 • 3059 → 1 Groat - 3/40

and Groat is in the subdivisions:
 

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
 

Dividing into lines…

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous

1 Florin = 15 Sous

1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros

1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas

1 Groat = 18 Dineros

1 Principado = 24 Sous

1 Trentin = 33 Groats

Calculating the value of Groat in Libras, according the information above:
 

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 1
1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous →  1 Sou = 1/20

1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros → 1 Dinero = 1/12 * 1/20 = 1/240
1 Groat = 18 Dineros → 1 Groat = 18 * 1/240 = 3/40
 

This value matches with the value of denominations.

But according to these sources, the value is other (1 Groat = 1/10 Libras):

• https://blognumismatico.com/2023/11/10/5-reales-de-la-guerra-de-los-segadores/
  1 Libra = 10 Groats = 10 Reales
  (I add the Real because is used by others denominations; I will request change its value later)
  1 Groat = 2 Sous → 1 Libra = 10 * 2 = 20 Sous
  1 Sou = 12 Dineros
• https://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/Banco-Espana/historia4-moneda.html
  1 Groat = 1 Real
• https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinero_(moneda)#Relación_del_dinero_con_otras_monedas_en_la_Corona_de_Aragón
  1 Libra = 240 Dineros
  1 Sou/Sueldo = 12 Dineros
  1 Libra = 20 Sous

Then, the subdivisions should be changed to:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
1 Groat = 18 Dineros (now this line is unnecessary and wrong)
1 Florin = 15 Sous
1 Principado = 24 Sous
1 Trentin = 33 Groats

I write subdivisions ordering according to guidelines https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-currency-in-the-catalogue-194.html

Value in Libras:
 

1          = 1.0000 – 1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

3/4      = 0.7500 – 1 Florin = 15 Sous
1/20   = 0.0500 – 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
1/240 = 0.0042 – 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
6/5      = 1.2000 – 1 Principado = 24 Sous
33/10 = 3.3000 – 1 Trentin = 33 Groats

In one line…:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats

Summarising… things to modify:

• Subdivisions:
  
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
  →
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
   
• Numeric values of denominations with Groats
  
  41021 • 3059 → ⅙ Groat - 1/80 → 1/60
  27267 • 3059 → ¼ Groat - 3/160 → 1/40
  29920 • 3059 → ⅓ Groat - 1/40 → 1/30
  22476 • 3059 → ½ Groat - 3/80 → 1/20
  12313 • 3059 → 1 Groat - 3/40 → 1/10

Note: This is wrong and was corrected in following messages.

I think your proposal is to give croat the value 1/10 libra. I don't agree.

First basics of Numismatics, there are coins and units of account. The units of account of the Catalan monetary system are three: libra, sou and dinero. The relationships were always 1 libra = 20 sous = 240 dineros. You can see a sou is synonymous of dozen dineros. The units of account (almost-) never are physical objects like coins.

The values of croat in units of accounts were

… from 1285 1 sou or 12 dineros
… from 1407 18 dineros
… from 1425 15 dineros
… from 1454 18 dineros
… in XVI-XVII centuries 2 sous or 24 dineros or 1/10 libra
… from 1670? 3 sous or 36 dineros

How to put this in Numista? I don't know.

The current value 1 croat = 18 dineros is as good as 24 dineros. They are correct in a period but not in other periods.

Yes, it is complicated! Well... something similar happens with the Trentin.

What do you think about adding these conversions?

1          = 1.0000 – 1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

3/4      = 0.7500 – 1 Florin = 15 Sous
1/20   = 0.0500 – 1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406)
3/40   = 0.0750 – 1 Groat = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500)   // or (1407-1424; 1454 - 15th century)

1/16   = 0.0625 – 1 Groat = 15 Dineros (1425-1453)
1/10   = 0.1000 – 1 Groat = 24 Dineros (1501-1669)                          // or (16th century - 1669)

5/48   = 0.1041 – 1 Groat = 25 Dineros (from 1670)

3/20   = 0.1500 – 1 Groat = 36 Dineros (from 1670)

1/20   = 0.0500 – 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
1/240 = 0.0042 – 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
6/5      = 1.2000 – 1 Principado = 24 Sous
33/10 = 3.3000 – 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
 

I do not know how write the lines of Groat, but I found similar cases:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/hannover_kingdom-1.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/venice-1.html#c_venice5883

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/netherland_east_indies-1.html#c_netherland_east_indies6347

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/chili-1.html#c_chili237

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/saxony_kingdom-1.html#c_saxony_kingdom10528

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/republique_dominicaine-1.html#c_republique_dominicaine314

so I suggest add

1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406) = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) = 15 Dineros (1425-1453) = 24 Dineros (1501-1669) = 25 Dineros (from 1670)
1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406) = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) = 15 Dineros (1425-1453) = 24 Dineros (1501-1669) = 36 Dineros (from 1670)

and remove

1 Groat = 18 Dineros

to the subdivisions (in English and other languages with their translation filled):
 

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
→
1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406) = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) = 15 Dineros (1425-1453) = 24 Dineros (1501-1669) = 25 Dineros (from 1670) • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats
1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406) = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) = 15 Dineros (1425-1453) = 24 Dineros (1501-1669) = 36 Dineros (from 1670) • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats

About the denominations… we have these:

I suggest using, in each coin, a denomination with the numeric value according to the first issuing year of the coin. But we will have same name with different numeric values. So I suggest writing in the name the years in which the numeric value was used.

Format: ID denomination • ID currency → text - current value

quantity of coins with issuing years → new value in Libras

new denomination ← action to do

41021 • 3059 → ⅙ Groat - 1/80

there is 1 coin 1416-1458 → value first year (3/40)/6 = 1/80

⅙ Groat (1407-1424; 1454-1500) - 1/80 ← it exists

27267 • 3059 → ¼ Groat - 3/160

there are 5 coins 1479-1516 → value first year (3/40)/4 = 3/160

¼ Groat (1407-1424; 1454-1500) - 3/160 ← it exists

there is 1 coin 1609 → value (1/10)/4 = 1/40

¼ Groat (1501-1669) - 1/40 ← add

29920 • 3059 → ⅓ Groat - 1/40

there is 1 coin 1416-1458 → value first year (3/40)/3 = 1/40

there are 5 coins 1458-1479 → value (3/40)/3 = 1/40

⅓ Groat (1407-1424; 1454-1500) - 1/40 ← it exists

22476 • 3059 → ½ Groat - 3/80

there is 1 coin 1285-1291 → value (1/20)/2 = 1/40

there are 3 coins 1396-1410 → value first year (1/20)/2 = 1/40

½ Groat (1285-1406) - 1/40 ← add

there is 1 coin 1412-1416 → value (3/40)/2 = 3/80

there are 2 coins 1416-1458 → value first year (3/40)/2 = 3/80

there is 1 coin 1462-1464 → value (3/40)/2 = 3/80

there are 4 coins 1479-1516 → value first year (3/40)/2 = 3/80

½ Groat (1407-1424; 1454-1500) - 3/80 ← it exists

there are 8 coins 1595-1642 → value (1/10)/2 = 1/20

½ Groat (1501-1669) - 1/20 ← add

12313 • 3059 → 1 Groat - 3/40

there are 18 coins 1285-1387 → value 1/20

there are 4 coins 1396-1410 → value first year 1/20

1 Groat (1285-1406) - 1/20 ← add

there is 1 coin 1412-1416 → value 3/40

there are 5 coins 1416-1458 → value first year 3/40

there are 2 coins 1462-1466 → value 3/40

there are 5 coins 1479-1516 → value first year 3/40

1 Groat (1407-1424; 1454-1500) - 3/40 ← it exists

there are 7 coins 1516-1658 → value 1/10

1 Groat (1501-1669) - 1/10 ← add

there are 7 coins 1674-1707 → value 5/48

1 Groat (from 1670) - 3/20 ← add

I modified my previous message.

I think @Jarcek has experience on how to handle these changing values. The monetary system of units of accounts never changed; but the coins were made in three metals, gold, silver and billon, and the relative values were always changing.

In principle, we can add as many different values of groats as we want, but this is only helpful if someone will then go into the catalog listings and change them all.  This has been done recently for the grosso of Florence,  which had even greater breadth of valuation (15, 20, 30 denari and 2, 4, 5.5 and 6 ⅔ soldi) but there are only a small number of types there.  

In some other countries, we have grouped, or clustered the values.  For example, I would propose that we use a single value of Groat = 24 dineros from 1501-1670, as the difference between 24 and 25 is relatively small.  For coins when the value was 25 dineros, a note can be added in the comment section.

We could then create additional values to cover the groat of 12, 15, 18 dineros which are larger differences.

Does this sound reasonable?

(Added:  As pointed out by zegeri, this is a general issue (changing value of certain denominations relative to units of account) across all of medieval Europe)

These new denominations have been created and now show up in the dropdown list:

1 Groat (1/20)

1 Groat (1/10)

½ Groat (1/40)

½ Groat (1/20)

¼ Groat (1/40)

So, each coin to which these values pertain can be modified through the Modification Request process.

If anything was missed, let me know.

I cannot see these new denominations in the dropdown list.

zegeri

I cannot see these new denominations in the dropdown list.

Me neither (I do not see it on the new coin page or on the translation page of denominations).

The order and the English name of subdivisions were modified by other means, so I reflect this on the first message.

To: @tdziemia

We have these denominations:

1 Groat (3/40)
½ Groat (3/80)

⅓ Groat (1/40)

¼ Groat (3/160)
⅙ Groat (1/80)

and now you will create these:

1 Groat (1/20)
1 Groat (1/10)
½ Groat (1/40)

½ Groat (1/20)

¼ Groat (1/40)

Then, we will have these (I add the years of each value):

1 Groat (1/20) → 1285-1406
1 Groat (3/40) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500
1 Groat (1/10) → 1501-1669

½ Groat (1/40) → 1285-1406
½ Groat (3/80) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500
½ Groat (1/20) → 1501-1669

⅓ Groat (1/40) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500

¼ Groat (3/160) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500
¼ Groat (1/40) → 1501-1669

⅙ Groat (1/80) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500

Comments:

1. I was going to ask this in the general forum but if you created other denominations with different values over time, I guess there is a “rule” to follow.

You do not add years to denominations. Users see 1 Groat with three different values (1/20, 3/40, 1/10), they must read the subdivisions
1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406) = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) = 15 Dineros (1425-1453) = 24 Dineros (1501-1669) = 25 Dineros (from 1670)
and calculate the numeric value of their coin.  Correct?

2. Numista has not coins with the value Groat = 15 Dineros (1425-1453)

3. About:

tdziemia

In some other countries, we have grouped, or clustered the values.  For example, I would propose that we use a single value of Groat = 24 dineros from 1501-1670, as the difference between 24 and 25 is relatively small.  For coins when the value was 25 dineros, a note can be added in the comment section.

I do not know if you understand the interval… 😅 the years of 25 Dineros are “from 1670 to …” (not only 1670). We have only 5 coin, all 1 Groat, from 1674 to 1707.

If we use a single value of Groat = 24 dineros, years are 1501-1707, else we need add one more denomination: 1 Groat (5/48)

4. I see a problem with the order of these type of denominations with multiple values. The denominations are ordered by the numeric value. For example the coins of 1 Groat will have this order

1 Groat (1/20 = 0.0500) → 1285-1406
1 Groat (1/16 = 0.0625) → 1425-1453 
1 Groat (3/40 = 0.0750) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500
1 Groat (1/10 = 0.1000) → 1501-1669
Note: We do not have coins of 1 Groat from 1425 to 1453, it is just an example.

The values are ordered but the correct thing to do in these case is to order the same denomination by years (I think)

1 Groat (1/20 = 0.0500) → 1285-1406
1 Groat (3/40 = 0.0750) → 1407-1424; 1454-1500
1 Groat (1/16 = 0.0625) → 1425-1453

1 Groat (1/10 = 0.1000) → 1501-1669

I assume you have found more case like this in other denominations. Is there any solution?

I was travelling today, and just saw this.  I agree they are not visible, so I will check to see what happened. 

Added:

I just tried again, and have implemented 1 croat (1/20) here:  N#125000

and 1 croat (1/10) here:  N#192786

davidhs

To: @tdziemia

 

We have these denominations:

1 Groat (3/40)
½ Groat (3/80)

⅓ Groat (1/40)

¼ Groat (3/160)
⅙ Groat (1/80)

and now you will create these:

1 Groat (1/20)
1 Groat (1/10)
½ Groat (1/40)

½ Groat (1/20)

¼ Groat (1/40)

 

I am not sure why these were erased from the database the first time I treid, but they have been created again.  I have attached the new values to one coin of each type with the new values:

1 Groat (1/20):  N#125000

1 Groat (1/10):  N#192786

½ Groat (1/40):  N#110672

½ Groat (1/20):   N#131836

¼ Groat (1/40): N#110672

tdziemia

I am not sure why these were erased from the database the first time I treid, but they have been created again.

Ok, thanks.

@zegeri, do you can assign the new denominations quickly as a referee, or would you prefer that I send modification requests?

Also, the titles of these coins pages need adapt to guidelines (denomination and king in English).

davidhs

 

@zegeri, do you can assign the new denominations quickly as a referee, or would you prefer that I send modification requests?

Also, the titles of these coins pages need adapt to guidelines (denomination and king in English).

Yes, I'll do it.

zegeri

The values of croat in units of accounts were

… from 1285 1 sou or 12 dineros
… from 1407 18 dineros
… from 1425 15 dineros
… from 1454 18 dineros
… in XVI-XVII centuries 2 sous or 24 dineros or 1/10 libra
… from 1670? 3 sous or 36 dineros

I am sorry, I had a typo… @zegeri, 1 groat from 1670 is 36 dineros… right? I copied 25 dineros in my request.

In this case, I think we can create a denominartion: 1 Groat (36*1/240 = 3/20)

zegeri

davidhs

 

@zegeri, do you can assign the new denominations quickly as a referee, or would you prefer that I send modification requests?

Also, the titles of these coins pages need adapt to guidelines (denomination and king in English).

Yes, I'll do it.

Done.

davidhs

zegeri

The values of croat in units of accounts were

… from 1285 1 sou or 12 dineros
… from 1407 18 dineros
… from 1425 15 dineros
… from 1454 18 dineros
… in XVI-XVII centuries 2 sous or 24 dineros or 1/10 libra
… from 1670? 3 sous or 36 dineros

I am sorry, I had a typo… @zegeri, 1 groat from 1670 is 36 dineros… right? I copied 25 dineros in my request.

 

In this case, I think we can create a denominartion: 1 Groat (36*1/240 = 3/20)

Please confirm we should create this one, then I can do it and we close this request.

Yes. Croat after 1670 = 3/20 of libra.

OK, face value of 1 Groat = 3/20 Libra has been put in the database and applied to these coins:

N#43274

N#110655

N#110656

N#107583

N#107585

I will close this request, and if new things come up, just submit another request.

Ok. Request about subdivisions: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic145625.html