Rename denominations: Pacifico (Libra, from Principality of Catalonia)

This is part of another more general topic: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144509.html

Currency code: 3059 • catalonia_principality

There are 2 coins that should use the denomination of ¼ Pacifico and 1 coin the denomination of ½ Pacifico:

• N#125060
  For example: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=359&lot=864">https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=359&lot=864
• N#125058
  For example: https://www.museunacional.cat/es/colleccio/cuarto-de-pacifico/renat-i-danjou/015720-n
• N#125057

Now these coins use the denominations (and only are used in these coins):

29922 • 3059 → ¼ Ducat - 1/4 (it should be ¼ Pacifico)

29921 • 3059 → ½ Ducat - 1/2 (it should be ½ Pacifico)

According the subdivisions of the currency, the numeric values are correct:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico → ¼ Pacifico = 1/4; ½ Pacifico = 1/2 

The denominations should be renamed:

¼ Ducat → ¼ Pacifico

½ Ducat → ½ Pacifico

(numeric values are same: 1/4 and 1/2).

I don't agree. The coins Pacifico and Principado were Ducats. They are only names of the Ducat. I think is better to use in the titles, for example:

Ducat ”Pacífico" - René of Anjou

The same in Castile with the Excelente.

zegeri

I don't agree. The coins Pacifico and Principado were Ducats. They are only names of the Ducat.

Ok, always was Ducat. I thought this coin was first named Principado and more later Ducat. I am a little confused.😳

The denominations do not must change, then.

You say “The coins Pacifico and Principado were Ducats” → 1 Ducat = 1 Pacifico = 1 Principado

Then something is wrong…

• We now have this subdivisions (without corrections):
  
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous
  1 Florin = 15 Sous
  1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Dobler = 6 Ardite = 12 Dineros
  1 Dinero = 2 Malla = 2 Obolo = 2 Senyal = 4 Pugesa
  1 Croat = 18 Dineros
  1 Principado = 24 Sous
  1 Trentin = 33 Croats
   
• Here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144562.html I add:
  
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Reales = 20 Sous
  1 Florin = 15 Sous
  1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406)
                  = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) 
                  = 15 Dineros (1425-1453)
                  = 24 Dineros (1501-1669)
                  = 25 Dineros (from 1670)
  1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
  1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
  1 Principado = 24 Sous
  1 Trentin = 33 Groats
   
• Here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144509.html I add
  
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Reales = 20 Sous
  1 Florin = 15 Sous
  1 Groat = 12 Dineros (1285-1406)
                  = 18 Dineros (1407-1424; 1454-1500) 
                  = 15 Dineros (1425-1453)
                  = 24 Dineros (1501-1669)
                  = 25 Dineros (from 1670)
  1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
  1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
  1 Ducat = 1 Principado = 24 Sous
  1 Trentin = 33 Reals (from 1618)
                     = 35 Reals (to 1617)
   
• Problem:
  
  1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous = 1
  1 Ducat = 1 Principado = 24 Sous = 24/20 = 6/5 = 1.2
  
  I found
  https://www.um.es/lexico-comercio-medieval/index.php/v/lexico/24071
  1 Pacifico = 20 Sous (1474)
  https://www.um.es/lexico-comercio-medieval/index.php/v/lexico/22341/ducado
  1 Ducat = 24 Sous (1496)
  https://www.um.es/lexico-comercio-medieval/index.php/v/lexico/24473
  Say: “Principado replaced the pacific and was called ducat”
  Perhaps principado replaced the pacific not with the same value?

zegeri

I think is better to use in the titles, for example:

Ducat ”Pacífico" - René of Anjou

I saw the guidelines https://en.numista.com/help/coin-name-142.html

I think we can rename to

N#125060

→

¼ Ducat / ¼ Pacifico - John II (Barcelona)

N#125058

→

¼ Ducat / ¼ Pacifico - René of Anjou (Barcelona)
 

N#125057

→

½ Ducat / ½ Pacifico - René of Anjou (Barcelona)

zegeri

The same in Castile with the Excelente.

Ok.

The ratio between gold and silver values was always changing. The florin, based on Florentine florin, was 11 sous from 1269, but from its origin was variable and agreed upon in each transaction (between 10 and 17 sous approx.). Perhaps we can simplify it to the original value of 11 or an intermediate value of 13. Select one.

The pacífico began in 1465 with a value 18 sous. It was different of the ducat, my previous error.

The principado, based on Venetian ducat, began in 1493. It was generally called ducat, hardly ever principado. The value was 24 sous.

The trentín, based on the Castilian 2 excelentes or doblón, began likely in 1599. A new name for the 2 ducats. The original value was 35 croats, 33 after 1618.

I look for information here

https://www.tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/119328/Txsa2de3.pdf?sequence=6

zegeri

The ratio between gold and silver values was always changing. The florin, based on Florentine florin, was 11 sous from 1269, but from its origin was variable and agreed upon in each transaction (between 10 and 17 sous approx.). Perhaps we can simplify it to the original value of 11 or an intermediate value of 13. Select one.

About the florin…

Numista have now 1 Florin = 15 Sous, and coins of ½ Florin and 1 Florin, from 1369-1464

I thought the florin always the had same value, so I did not look for information. Now I searched for and found this: https://www.enciclopedia.cat/lart-gotic-a-catalunya/la-moneda

• there is a table with this: 1 Florin = 16 Sous (1341-1362)
                                                                         = ? Sous (1363-1364)
                                                                         = 11 Sous (1365-1455; 1457-1471; 1473-1481)
                                                                         = 13 Sous (1456)
                                                                         = 16 Sous (1472)
• the text says change to 11 Sous (1365), 13 Sous (1456) and 16.5 Sous (1472), and the last issue was im 1481.

I really prefer use different values according the issuing years (like with Groat and Trentin) instead of an average value (because we have this information in these case).

I saw coins in Numista and, if we add denominations with years, we need these denominations (1 Sou = 1/20):

Format: Denomination – Numeric value

½ Florin (1365-1481)  – 11/2 Sous = 11/40

1 Florin (1365-1481)  – 11 Sous = 11/20

These denominations exist, only is need change the title and the value.

What do you think?

zegeri

The pacífico began in 1465 with a value 18 sous. It was different of the ducat, my previous error.

🤔 1 Pacifico  = 18 Sous (1465-…)

But…. here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144562.html#p1151182 I added: 1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

What relation is wrong: only is the sou variable?

According

https://www.tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/119328/Txsa2de3.pdf?sequence=6 after 1481 (in 1481, 1487 and 1493)

https://dcvb.iec.cat/results.asp?word=pacific in 1489

https://issuu.com/institut-destudis-catalans/docs/chr_9_issuu in 1491 remained at

1 Pacifico = 20 Sous (oficial value)

I have some questions:

• When 1 Pacifico changed from 18 to 20 Sous?
• Was 1 Libra = 10 Reales = 20 Sous always? Yes, please! Sou is the basic denomination… if this relation is also variable, 💣we have a problem!

zegeri

The principado, based on Venetian ducat, began in 1493. It was generally called ducat, hardly ever principado. The value was 24 sous.

I did not find anything about different values, so I assume this was 24 sous always.

We can add in subdivisions:

1 Ducat = 1 Principado = 24 Sous

But, since both names are the same coin (not two different coins with same value) we can write the second name in parentheses (I think I saw the same thing in other currencies):

1 Ducat (Principado) = 24 Sous

Numista has not denominations with Principado, only Ducat. There is no problem here.

zegeri

The trentín, based on the Castilian 2 excelentes or doblón, began likely in 1599. A new name for the 2 ducats. The original value was 35 croats, 33 after 1618.

Yes, I took it into account here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144509.html but I have not published a specific request yet.

Only a question: 1 Trentin = 35/33 Croats… or 35/33 Reales?

This is getting complicated. 😵 We should create a topic in Spanish for discuss about the value of subdivisions before send requests?

davidhs

 

zegeri

The ratio between gold and silver values was always changing. The florin, based on Florentine florin, was 11 sous from 1269, but from its origin was variable and agreed upon in each transaction (between 10 and 17 sous approx.). Perhaps we can simplify it to the original value of 11 or an intermediate value of 13. Select one.

About the florin…

 

Numista have now 1 Florin = 15 Sous, and coins of ½ Florin and 1 Florin, from 1369-1464

 

I thought the florin always the had same value, so I did not look for information. Now I searched for and found this: https://www.enciclopedia.cat/lart-gotic-a-catalunya/la-moneda

• there is a table with this: 1 Florin = 16 Sous (1341-1362)
                                                                         = ? Sous (1363-1364)
                                                                         = 11 Sous (1365-1455; 1457-1471; 1473-1481)
                                                                         = 13 Sous (1456)
                                                                         = 16 Sous (1472)
• the text says change to 11 Sous (1365), 13 Sous (1456) and 16.5 Sous (1472), and the last issue was im 1481.

 

I really prefer use different values according the issuing years (like with Groat and Trentin) instead of an average value (because we have this information in these case).

 

I saw coins in Numista and, if we add denominations with years, we need these denominations (1 Sou = 1/20):

Format: Denomination – Numeric value

½ Florin (1365-1481)  – 11/2 Sous = 11/40

1 Florin (1365-1481)  – 11 Sous = 11/20

These denominations exist, only is need change the title and the value.

 

What do you think?

 

Chart of value of florín in dineros / year. You can divide by 12 to get value in sous.

Whatever value and years you want, it will be a convention. 11 sous is ok.

About the table you have found, before 1365 the florín was minted in Perpignan, outside the scope of this thread and with higher fineness. The first florin as coin in Barcelona was officially of 11 sous. Then it was always changing. Let's not take into account the values after pacíficos, because they are about existing florins, not new issues; or as unit of account; or as nickname of the ⅓ trentín.

davidhs

 

🤔 1 Pacifico  = 18 Sous (1465-…)

 

But…. here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144562.html#p1151182 I added: 1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

 

What relation is wrong: only is the sou variable?

 

According

https://www.tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/119328/Txsa2de3.pdf?sequence=6 after 1481 (in 1481, 1487 and 1493)

https://dcvb.iec.cat/results.asp?word=pacific in 1489

https://issuu.com/institut-destudis-catalans/docs/chr_9_issuu in 1491 remained at

1 Pacifico = 20 Sous (oficial value)

 

I have some questions:

• When 1 Pacifico changed from 18 to 20 Sous?
• Was 1 Libra = 10 Reales = 20 Sous always? Yes, please! Sou is the basic denomination… if this relation is also variable, 💣we have a problem!

 

Remember, we only need values of the issued coins. We needn't the value of its entire circulation period. This coin was issued in a relative short period, with the official value 18 sous. Pacífico officialy changed to 20 sous in 1476, when the new gold coins already were principados / ducats.

davidhs

 

Only a question: 1 Trentin = 35/33 Croats… or 35/33 Reales?

The official name of this coin, I think, was Barcelona silver dinero (diner d'argent de Barcinona). Before the Pragmática de Nueva Estampa in 1566 was known as croat, and after as real or ral.

When the Trentin / doblon was issued, it was more correct to say 1 Trentín = 33 Reales.

davidhs

 

This is getting complicated. 😵 We should create a topic in Spanish for discuss about the value of subdivisions before send requests?

Ok. Sometimes I get confused and answer in the wrong language. English in the Spanish forum and vice versa.

zegeri

davidhs

 

This is getting complicated. 😵 We should create a topic in Spanish for discuss about the value of subdivisions before send requests?

Ok. Sometimes I get confused and answer in the wrong language. English in the Spanish forum and vice versa.

We can continue here: https://es.numista.com/forum/topic145005.html