Another quality question: this time Canada $100 (bought as UNC at auction) [gelöst]

I won this $100 note on a Katz auction. The note was listed as uncirculated and on first glance that is what it looks like. But there are two things I was disappointed with:

1. The corners don't look sharp to me

2. There are fine brown dots on the note, these show up dark on UV and on backlight

Here are some examples of the spots, they look almost like rust:

Then one example corner, and a nearby cluster of three brown dots:

Did I get screwed on this?

Or is that something that can just “happen” to an UNC note?

I am sorry that you bought a UNC note with stains or rust spots. I can imagine your disappointment upon receiving the note. The way you have described the note, I would grade it as perhaps aUNC++. Personally, I would not buy it as UNC. Then, it's my opinion. The stains or rust spots can downgrade the value of the note.

It is disappointing!

Would you send it back or store it away as AUNC? I paid 90 Euros for it which isn't too high for $100 Canadian if you convert it.

What do you think of the corner? All four look exactly the same.

I can't say unless I have the note in hand. I am not an expert but that is just my opinion. When buying old notes, there is no harm asking the seller some questions.

1) Are there any visible flaws on the note?

2) Are there any folds or paper creases on the paper?

3) Are all the corners sharp and clean (be careful on this as some may even trim the note to make it looks like new)

4) Has the note been washed and pressed?

5) Is this an ATM note?

If they do not bother to reply, then it means there is something wrong with the note. Scan images can be deceiving. I do have fair shares of my bad experience.

IMO, if all the corners have creases or folds, then this note is just aUNC at best. Given the price you have paid for, I believe it is a fair price.

I bought this UNC in 2001 and paid A$165 for it. I believe mine is P99a.

I'll have to chalk it up to some bad luck then, it was won on auction.

Does your note at least have sharp corners? Mine seems to be rounded the same amount on each corner but there are no folds or creases anywhere. It is a crisp note at least, all that is wrong is the brown dots and corners not sharp.

A note with rounded corners is not UNC.

The brown dots are possibly foxing. 

I find that many notes graded as UNC these days by dealers and grading companies are far short of Uncirculated.

Generally speaking, from my observations, a note needs to be graded at least 67 with quality mark [EPQ etc] to be regarded as UNC. 

I tested this. and had a note graded which I considered to be AU EPQ, it came back as UNC 65 EPQ. I also had an UNC (sharp corners, taken from a block) graded, which came back as 67 EPQ.

Thanks, does it then go AU or one lower? I mean my one above.

I think that if there is no creasing, then AU would be appropriate. 

With the brown spotting, if it is foxing, it would not get the quality mark.

Thanks, AU it is then, since there are no creases or folds anywhere.

It makes me wonder how a note could get all four corners rounded but no other mechanical damage.

odd job

I'll have to chalk it up to some bad luck then, it was won on auction.

Does your note at least have sharp corners? Mine seems to be rounded the same amount on each corner but there are no folds or creases anywhere. It is a crisp note at least, all that is wrong is the brown dots and corners not sharp.

Yes my note is UNC condition. It was bought here so I had the opportunity to personally inspect it before buying it.

In general, you will find it hard to get what you want if you venture into notes that are 10+ years or older. It is bound to have flaws if you are buying them over the Internet. For me, I only concentrate on current or latest issues, and if I have to buy on eBay or a dealer's site, I will ask all the normal questions and see how they respond. Despite this, I still get notes that are not in UNC condition, and in most cases, the seller will provide me with a discount after receiving the note. The most recent one was the Cayman Islands $25 commemorative note. It was sold as UNC but the note has a centerfold on it. Don't get too disheartened with this C$100. Such disappointment does happen. It is just part and parcel of the collection. Just learn from this and be a bit careful the next time. Consider this as a learning curve. 

I am not too worried about graded notes as I am not willing to pay an inflated price for it. In all my 6,000+ notes, I only have 3 notes that are graded and sealed in a hard plastic sleeve. One was a rare note (which I have no choice) and the other two were China 100 yuan solid # notes, both graded the same but I can see the minor corner flaw on it for one of them. If they can grade notes like this, so do I, so why pay extra to make someone happy for it. As long as I do not see any flaws with my naked eyes, I am happy with it. If you are looking for perfect notes, then this is not a hobby or collection. This is more like an obsession. 
 

For new notes, you will find the common flaws, such as cutting cup (or C) mark on top or bottom of the note where the security thread is. Some sellers will try to iron down this flaw to make it more acceptable. Notes that are not centrally aligned (some collectors will not buy them). For polymers, the most common flaws are fine scratch lines especially along the transparent window or hologram (Canadian current series). You will find some sellers selling polymer notes with deep scratch lines as UNC, which is incorrect. Other flaws such as dents are also common too. 
 

This is just my opinion, and I do not expect you or others here to agree with me. Everyone has their own opinion.

That does make sense, I have some notes that are not perfect, from South Africa. But  I value them just the same - for example one is a 1962 10 Rand note that is XF, but I still like it because I've had it for many years.

But the Canadian is a special case because I want this Birds of Canada series and I would like them UNC because they have such an unusual UV activity. I have three “well circulated” $20 bills and one $10 from that series which I keep for showing my buddies the blue dots under UV. 

The ones I got that are genuine UNC I keep to one side. I have the $5 and the $20 so far UNC, I was really looking forward to having a $100 UNC but I guess I have to wait for that!

I agree with most of @ahkai's observations except I have found a # of eBay sellers who I can actually trust & I really like TPG (Third Party Graded) notes -which he doesn't (& considers it paying a premium for someone else's opinion).  In essence, he's right- you are paying a premium but since the notes have been vacuum sealed, I feel good about the preservation aspect.  Also, after I have ‘met my maker’ I would rather have my collection be “set up” so its a little bit easier to dispose of (convert back to cash) for my partner.  She will be able to sell my collection as “collector items” (rather than deposit them as cash into her bank account) so this provides me with “peace of mind” that comes with owning certified (TPG) notes too.  When certain nations/varieties have high prices its even more essential to be sure the note is UNC grade.  There's a lot of common, current TPG modern series (which I cannot fathom why they/ve been certified) but that's another topic. 

I'm sorry to see that your BIRDS $100 banknote was mishandled & then likely exposed to moisture or something to have cause those brown rust spots.  The soft corners & other flaws are unfortunate too but I see them on notes listed as “UNC” far too often. I couldn't give that note more than an AU grade but wouldn't touch it because you can get those for Face Value here. There's really little premiums in buying $100 notes & that goes right back to Modified 1954 series.  Whenever I go to shows, I actively discourage collectors from buying them (they're just way too common & far too tough to sell).  The last show I was at, I saw so many of them sitting there I felt a bit sad for the sellers.  

Many people who start collecting banknotes assume that they should buy a high denomination because low # were issued. This is really faulty reasoning b/c Canadian businesses have refused to handle them for decades (& they've met little circulation).  Most Canadians store cash value in the $50 & $100 notes so they've been kept but they hardly circulated (unlike the lower denominations $1.00 to $20.00 circulated a lot from 1954 on).  

If you actually are going to chase a $50 or  a $100, it should be GEM UNC 67 & be a tough variety (at the very least).  The biggest problem with high denominations is that most of our older generation dumped runs or lots of them (in UNC) into their Safety Deposit boxes.  I have done it myself.  Once our older generation passes on, the kids who inherit them, dump them back into the bank. A number of people (who don't collect) put them through counting machines (& whatnot) & they meet hard counters & get slightly circulated so many become AU.  The notes sharp corners get bumped (or rounded, like yours) but eventually some individual finds them & sells them on eBay (or pays a coin shop for some lower denomination or a collectible coin).  Whatever happens, these higher denominations have a “rough ride” or get mishandled enough they become AU but to a coin collector they're sold as “UNC” & then the cycle repeats itself.  It's unfortunate to see, but I have seen collectors complain about AU $50 & $100 for the past 30 years (& AU described as UNC since I have been using eBay).    

Anyway, I think your best bet would be to try to contact your seller & see if you can get your money back (make some type of compensation arrangement) or just chalk it up to experience (we live & learn). 

My thinking is, because this note is so ugly under UV I am going to return it. It has no redeeming features unfortunately. 

I found out that UV picks up those spots very handily, look at the whole note:

I do still want an UNC $100 though. The heart wants what the heart wants!

I personally think that you are over analysed your purchases especially for older notes. For me, as long as I see no flaws with my naked eyes, I am happy with it. Of course, no washed or pressed notes. 

To me, the Canadian Bird series is very nice. My major criticism is the large letters on the back - CANADA. If only they had this printed smaller. Again, this is my opinion. I do have a full set with Thiesse-Crow signatures, all in UNC condition. Sorry, I am not rubbing this in. Just conversation. I got my set, separately, all in 2000.
 

I also have the last bird and New Journey series for the $5 and $10 matching serial numbers sets. I was told that these are quite common or reasonably cheap in Canada. Got mine via Canadian Post back in 2001 and 2002. The notes are sealed in a folder. The $5 set was for C$39.95 and for the $10 was C$49.95. I do not think I should be laughing all the way to my bank yet, or perhaps never!

Serial_Number_8

I agree with most of @ahkai's observations except I have found a # of eBay sellers who I can actually trust & I really like TPG (Third Party Graded) notes -which he doesn't (& considers it paying a premium for someone else's opinion).  In essence, he's right- you are paying a premium but since the notes have been vacuum sealed, I feel good about the preservation aspect.  Also, after I have ‘met my maker’ I would rather have my collection be “set up” so its a little bit easier to dispose of (convert back to cash) for my partner.  She will be able to sell my collection as “collector items” (rather than deposit them as cash into her bank account) so this provides me with “peace of mind” that comes with owning certified (TPG) notes too.  When certain nations/varieties have high prices its even more essential to be sure the note is UNC grade.  There's a lot of common, current TPG modern series (which I cannot fathom why they/ve been certified) but that's another topic. 

You are going to live to 101+ and even more++++. Think positive. 

odd job

My thinking is, because this note is so ugly under UV I am going to return it.

The auctioneer graded it as UNC. As it is not UNC, you are entitled to return it for a full refund including your postage costs in returning it.

I have indeed mailed it back to Katz.

I included prints of my scans showing where the dots are and also an image of the UV, since that really highlights how many dots there are.

I'll report back here what they say.

Thanks for sharing & keep us posted!

You are going to live to 101+ and even more++++. Think positive. 

Thanks for your kind thoughts @ahkai ! 🤣

Update: this eventually got refunded.

The problem was I returned it to the sender's address that was on the original package that came from Katz. This is not the address they receive packages, it is the business address. So the note went on a nice tour of CZ, then came back to me undelivered a few weeks later and I then sent it to the correct address.

It was then refunded as credit (which I asked for, because I was bidding on the next auction already).

By the way when I asked Katz how it could be that this note was sold as UNC, they told me that they get too many items for auction to check each one carefully.

odd job

By the way when I asked Katz how it could be that this note was sold as UNC, they told me that they get too many items for auction to check each one carefully.

That is not good enough. 

An auctioneer is responsible for the grade that they state an item to be, unless it is slabbed.

I agree with you, and I had two subsequent problem notes from two additional auctions from Katz. 

One was a note that had a divot defect on one edge, also sold as UNC. That one one went back and was credited to me without quibble. 

Then the last auction I won an UNC 100 Gulden note which I was very happy to have won at 112Euro. That note arrived with edge folds and two minor spots on it. The spots I didn't mind, but the folds I did. 

When I advised I was going to send that back, they initially told me the folds were from a counting machine and the note was still UNC.

I rejected that explanation because it had two parallel folds right at the edge and another one further in. They then agreed to refund me the note and the postage, which they have done.

By the way the Canada note I returned is in the current auction, listed as AU so I will give them credit for that.

odd job

When I advised I was going to send that back, they initially told me the folds were from a counting machine and the note was still UNC.

A note with folds from any source other than part of the manufacturing process is not UNC.

If I remember correctly, the definition of UNC is ‘a note as issued’.