Fractionary values

Hello,

Do you have a good way to tell the fractionary value of a small coin. I am looking for that for Thalers.

I found this table http://sri.lamoneta.it/Numismatica/relazioniNominali_EN.php
But it has been variable.

Your opinion ?

Cheers,

André

This seems a decent table, but it should come with some specifications and/or restrictions: It is valid for all typically (mainly North) German thalers from the first half of the 19th century.
These Thaler were containing 16.5-16.7 g silver. Mostly they were 22.27g at 0.750 silver purity. Later on (towards 1850) 18.5g thaler at 90% pure also have been issued in some German states.

examples: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces26709.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces47329.html

Bavaria and the 18th century Holy Roman Empire have been issuing more solid Thaler. There were 120 Kreuzer to their 'Konventionthaler'.

examples: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces33437.html
                      https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14906.html

Hello,

I have gone through the Zöttl (Salzburg Münzen und Medaillen 1500-1810. See below a short summary. No wonder why I could not get hold of those fractional values !!

I realize that for our catalogue, when a "country" like Salzburg has coins from 1500 to XXth century, it is an illusion to try keeping a single "Thaler" currency with coherent fractional values. That is why fractions like 1/0, 1/120, 1/72 or 1/288 etc show up in time. All right but refering to different time periods. And this does not consider the fineness of the thaler !

Either we take Salzburg out of Austrian States and divide it into time periods, or fractional values become virtual with the only purpose of having the coins in a reasonable order (heller, pfennig, kreuzer etc...)

And that will be the same for many German States, Austria before 1754 etc.

Any idea ?

Cheers,

André

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Salzburg coinage after 1500.

After 1500, Leonhard von Keutschach was Archbishop, the Gulden is divided in 60 Kreuzer = 240 pfennig = 480 heller
A Batzen worth 16 pfennig = 4 kreuzer = 1/15 (after 1512) is produced.
Zehner = 10 Kreuzer = 1/6
Pfennig = 1/240 (from 1500 to 1508 produced with 1500 common date)
Heller = 1/480

Matthaus von Wellenburg. 1519 – 1540
Same coins until 1535.
Then the Süddeutschen Münzvertrages von Regensburg 1535 (first Reichmünzordnung) signed by Salzburg, modifies the coinage. After 1536:
Guldiner = 60 kreuzer, Halbguldiner  = 36 kreuzer
Production of 12er, 6er and 3er (groschen) = 12, 6 and 3 kreuzer.
No more Batzen.

Ernst von Bayern. 1540 – 1554
Same until 1551 with the second “Reichmünzordnung”, then,
Guldiner = 72 kreuzer and Halbguldiner = 36 kreuzer, Kreuzer = 1/72
Zweier = 2 Pfennig = 1/144
Pfennig = ¼ kreuzer = 1/288
Heller = 1/2 Pfennig = 1/576

“Guldiner werden schon als Taler bezeichnet” Zöttl p 438

Michael von Kuenburg 1554 - 1560
In 1559, III Reichsmünzordnung Augsburg (under Emperor Ferdinand I)
Guldiner = Thaler = 60 kr, Halbguldiner = 30 kr

Johan Jakob Khuen von Belasi 1560 – 1586
first 10 kreuzer coins, Zehner = 1/6

Wolf Dietrich von Raitenau. 1587 -1612

At the start of the 17th century, financial difficulties lead to the production of smaller Thaler for  70 kreuzer in 1602, 80 kreuzer in 1607.

Paris von Lodron. 1619 - 1653

During the 30 year war, takes place a major devaluation of the money called in German the Kipper periode (in all Holly Empire and many German States). See wiki: Kipper und Wipper (German: Kipper- und Wipperzeit, literally "Tipper and See-saw") is the name given to a financial crisis during the start of the Thirty Years' War (1618–48). Starting around 1621, city-states in the Holy Roman Empire began to heavily debase currency in order to raise revenue for the Thirty Years' War.

The Thaler, between 1602 and 1620, gets to 114 kreuzer.
1620, the thaler is worth 120 kreuzer. In Salzburg “Kipperkreuzern et Kipperhellern” are produced.
60 = ½ Thaler, 48, 24 and 12 (the last 2 for the Sechser and Groshen).
Those are the 1620, 1621, 1622 coins.

End in 1623, back to normal for 1624 coinage.

The 17th century will see a second minor devaluation period under Max Gandolf. In 1667, 1 thaler = 96 and then 107 kreuzer.

After 1754, Conventionsthaler divided in 2 guldens of 60 kreuzer each. 120 kr/thaler

So,
1500 to 1551. 1 Guldiner = 60 kreuzer
1551 to 1559. 1 Guldiner = Thaler = 72 kreuzer
after 1559, back to 60/Thaler
1600 start the problems.
1602 70/Thaler, 1607 80/Thaler, 1620 120/Thaler
1624 back to 60/Thaler
Again devaluation 1667-70, down to 100/Thaler.

After 1754, 120 kreuzer/Thaler = Conventionsthaler =2 Guldens “Fl”
However, what happened is the kreuzer was devaluated to 144/Thaler in South German states: see in wiki
"Following the adoption of the Conventionsthaler in 1754, two distinct Kreuzer came into being. The first, sometimes referred to as the Conventionskreuzer, was worth 1/120 of a Conventionsthaler, valuing the gulden at half a Conventionsthaler. This was used in Austria-Hungary. However, the states of southern Germany adopted a smaller Kreuzer Landmünze worth 1/144 of a Conventionsthaler, thus valuing the Gulden at 5/12 of a Conventionsthaler. In fact, the southern German states issued coins denominated in Kreuzer Landmünze up to 6 Kreuzer Landmünze (equal to 5 Conventionskreuzer) but in Conventionskreuzer for higher denominations."

I guess in Salzburg was the 1/120 rate.