Did I pay too much?- Italy 1 lira 1861

Hello, as a young and sometimes (too) passionate coin collector, i took some of my first steps into the dark world of Ebay tonight. I bought this lot for the Italian 1 Lira coin in it.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=302110285222
I've been told that if there's only the picture of one of the sides, there tends to be a good reason for it. so I ask the more experienced collectors did i pay too much?
Loruca

Passion is good but I would have passed on this one. I know an 1861 Lira is quite nice in reasonable condition and I own one myself (can't remember how much exactly I paid for it, around 12 EUR I believe for a VF).

Try to go for quality not quantity. I made that mistake when I was young and ended up replacing quite a few worn coins. Good luck!

Verweis : "jokinen"​Passion is good but I would have passed on this one. I know an 1861 Lira is quite nice in reasonable condition and I own one myself (can't remember how much exactly I paid for it, around 12 EUR I believe for a VF).
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​Try to go for quality not quantity. I made that mistake when I was young and ended up replacing quite a few worn coins. Good luck!
​

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You're absolutely right! I have had the same issue myself - few nice coins but too worn to cost anything... That's why now I collect only XF or better coins.

Verweis : "jokinen"​Passion is good but I would have passed on this one. I know an 1861 Lira is quite nice in reasonable condition and I own one myself (can't remember how much exactly I paid for it, around 12 EUR I believe for a VF).
​
​Try to go for quality not quantity. I made that mistake when I was young and ended up replacing quite a few worn coins. Good luck!
​

​@druzhynets and @jokinen are you sure we're talking about the same coin? I would understand getting a 1863 or an 1867 for that price, but the 1861 is universes away (not to mention not in krause).
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces46331.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7216.html
Edit: i forgot to write that this is not my graphic and i stole it from rhinocoins to show you.

Sorry, I was mistaken. I thought it was this one:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces20113.html

Looks like you did a good deal! Let us know if you got the one from Florence or Turin!

Verweis : "jokinen"​Sorry, I was mistaken. I thought it was this one:
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​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces20113.html
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​Looks like you did a good deal! Let us know if you got the one from Florence or Turin!

​I'll make sure to let you guys know! It's just been shipped from the US. I'll wait and cross my fingers that canada post doesn't take too too long.
Loruca

The coins came today! The lira is pretty nice, though some serious cleaning was inflicted to it in the past.
Loruca

Edit: Tell me what you think!

Verweis : "loruca"​The coins came today! The lira is pretty nice, though some serious cleaning was inflicted to it in the past.
​Loruca
​
​Edit: Tell me what you think!

​I agree - although worn, I think it looks pretty cool!


You bring up an interesting topic I've been curious about - how to tell if a coin has been cleaned. I've seen other members post replies in response to scans of coins pointing out that they've been cleaned - and I've read about the different signs to look for - but I am still very much a novice in the area.

So, for this coin in particular, knowing you said it was cleaned, I'm guessing that perhaps you can tell by the color (maybe too bright for such a worn coin) and the abrasions/scratches on both sides. But, if you didn't tell me it was cleaned, I wouldn't automatically assume from the 2 points mentioned it was cleaned (i.e. my first assumption with the scratches was that it slid on some rough surface - not that it was cleaned abrasively).

I guess my question is: if you saw this photo/scan of this coin, what are the giveaways that let you know its cleaned, and how to tell that from other "damage"/wear/etc.

I tend to look for bands of parallel(ish) hairline scratches, especially obvious on the right side of the obverse of the above coin - they're usually a giveaway of the coin being cleaned previously.

Verweis : "atdavid"​

Verweis : "loruca"​The coins came today! The lira is pretty nice, though some serious cleaning was inflicted to it in the past.
​​Loruca
​​
​​Edit: Tell me what you think!

​​I agree - although worn, I think it looks pretty cool!
​
​
​You bring up an interesting topic I've been curious about - how to tell if a coin has been cleaned. I've seen other members post replies in response to scans of coins pointing out that they've been cleaned - and I've read about the different signs to look for - but I am still very much a novice in the area.
​
​So, for this coin in particular, knowing you said it was cleaned, I'm guessing that perhaps you can tell by the color (maybe too bright for such a worn coin) and the abrasions/scratches on both sides. But, if you didn't tell me it was cleaned, I wouldn't automatically assume from the 2 points mentioned it was cleaned (i.e. my first assumption with the scratches was that it slid on some rough surface - not that it was cleaned abrasively).
​
​I guess my question is: if you saw this photo/scan of this coin, what are the giveaways that let you know its cleaned, and how to tell that from other "damage"/wear/etc.

​This coin was cleaned long ago, when people liked shiny coins more than a nice patina, but even for past standards it was an amateur job, there are a great number of small parallel scratches at the bottom of the coin under the bust. I took the pictures from an angle in which they are most visible, and so you can see them on both sides. the fields are also unusually reflective, they haven't been polished but the lines from the coin's cleaning are really bad. I would think this coin has been cleaned with some kind of abrasive cloth (silver polish?) or microfibre. I can tell it is an old cleaning because the coin has re-acquired a nice dull grey patina on it's entire surface. Given the condition, i am seriously considering keeping the coin in a pocket for a week to try to wear the lines down a bit. ( i probably won't do it though because the coin still has a good value)
Loruca

Just don't go spending a fortune right now on coins, being young you're unlikely to have chosen where you want to specify your collecting. Right now you're probably much better off buying some numismatic literature which can be expensive.

Underwhelming i I know but knowledge is our greatest weapon against counterfeiters and those with low morals trying to sell a bad coin by "improving" it.

im not saying this is the case right now but I know for a fact when you get older you won't be happy with that coin. VF as a minimum should keep you sweet. :)

Verweis : "Mark240590"​Just don't go spending a fortune right now on coins, being young you're unlikely to have chosen where you want to specify your collecting. Right now you're probably much better off buying some numismatic literature which can be expensive.
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​Underwhelming i I know but knowledge is our greatest weapon against counterfeiters and those with low morals trying to sell a bad coin by "improving" it.
​
​im not saying this is the case right now but I know for a fact when you get older you won't be happy with that coin. VF as a minimum should keep you sweet. :)
​
​

​Thanks for your suggestions mark! I have to say, you agree with most people on the forum, and i have tried to take your suggestions! (which makes for one heck of a pile of second-hand books!) You are also absolutely right about not yet having chosen what i want to collect. If you look at my collection in my profile, it's a very very weird world in which the only requirement to join is silver content and circulation!
Loruca

Ha yes, I started collecting a little later than you but it still took me a while too decided that British Colonial was my collection. My biggest regret is not buying VF as a minimum as I find myself going through quite an extensive upgrade programme. Recently I've decided VF will only suffice for scarce coins but g/VF or EF will be the minimum because you can't fully appreciate the details. Learning to grade for your self is also very important too but while you can sort of vaguely grade all coins until you specify your collection then you can really get too know the specifics.

im hoping you'll become a stalwart of our community in years too come :)

Verweis : "Mark240590"Recently I've decided VF will only suffice for scarce coins but g/VF or EF will be the minimum because you can't fully appreciate the details.

​Sometimes you don't have the choice but to take low grade coins.
I have for example been looking for year for a CNIQ CENTIMES (wrong spelling of the number 5 which should be CINQ) coin and finally got this one and am very happy with it.


These are very rare and seem to appear almost only in low grades.
Here is one with the correct spelling and in better grade:

I thought I had mentioned some scarcer coins will only be affordable in lower grades already. Like my Gold Coast ackey is only around VF but I'm more than happy with it.

Sure, but sometimes even a nice Fine may be out of reach, like my CNIQ - coin.
Concerning modern French coins, please check this site: http://www.collection-ideale-cgb.net/sommaire.php
You may find that the best known coin may only be a poor Good.
But of course, I agree that it does not make much sense to buy a readily available coin in a poor condition just to upgrade it some time later because you don't like it anymore.

Verweis : "maudry"​Sure, but sometimes even a nice Fine may be out of reach, like my CNIQ - coin.
​Concerning modern French coins, please check this site: http://www.collection-ideale-cgb.net/sommaire.php
​You may find that the best known coin may only be a poor Good.
​But of course, I agree that it does not make much sense to buy a readily available coin in a poor condition just to upgrade it some time later because you don't like it anymore.

Maybe ​a better example Would've been the British Java stiver my own example is Poor but it's Very rare too find one higher than that since they were a failed attempt as the machinery couldn't cope.
Im not disagreeing with you but until the OP decides to specialise in an area it will take years for him to learn of these coins. Which is why I said it's best too arm yourself with some good literature so you know what you're up against :)