If a registered letter is verified lost by the postal service, (the post office admits they are at fault) who is responsible for the loss? The sender? The receiver? Nobody?
How would you resolve the situation to satisfy both swap partners?
As a general rule here in Spain, if a registered letter is lost by the postal system, a claim can be made, then the post office after verifying that the letter is lost (minimum three months) gives you an economic compensation according to the Shipping weight.
If the shipment is certified and this is lost, you can compensate the collector who did not receive the coins, with coins for the value that gives you mail as compensation.
Does that work in Spain? In the US I am fairly sure they would tell you that you're not allowed to send coins via registered mail and therefore it was at your own risk. Or they would look up your customs declaration where you claimed that $100 of coins was actually only worth $5 and then reimburse you $5.
When letters have gone missing, I have in the past let my swap partner pick another set of equal value, if it was a small swap. If the swap was substantial, I think it's fair to resend coins of half the value of the original swap; that way the two collectors split the losses.
The sender should claim compensation from his local Post Office.
The process takes time, because they contact the receiver's PO to get conirmation that the item was realy lost.
Verweis : "gyoschak"If a registered letter is verified lost by the postal service, (the post office admits they are at fault) who is responsible for the loss? The sender? The receiver? Nobody?
How would you resolve the situation to satisfy both swap partners?
I personally think that we need to reason as an insurance company:
1) The first responsible is the sender (part A) that is liable towards the recipient. The sender must compensate the receiver with other coins of the same value of those lost.
2) The sender will claim to the postal service (part the symbolic sum provided for such cases. If the sender declare previously a sum/value to be assured, the postal service reimburses in proportion to the sum assured.
3) The recipient/receiver (part C) can never be held liable because the contract of shipping is between the sender (part A) and the Postal Service (part B).
This is for me the logical rule that the swappers, that are gentlemen, should undertake.
This is always a sensitive topic with lost coins.
If there is proof, such as registered number for the package, and I am satisfied that it's not a scammer, I feel it's a risk we all take.
Both parties should do all they can to recover the coins, but no one is obligated to resend anything.
I put in my profile that I only resend on special swaps.
Good luck.
I have a similar problem and need advice on how to handle it. I swapped with a guy who has a good reputation and i believe that he did indeed mail it but I never recieved it. Its not a high value swap and I dont seek compensation and accept the risk we all take. I am just very disappointed that I wont get the beautiful coins I really wanted but dont want to damage his reputation. How do I rate the attempt at at good swap gone bad? No rating?
Verweis : "harryg"I have a similar problem and need advice on how to handle it. I swapped with a guy who has a good reputation and i believe that he did indeed mail it but I never recieved it. Its not a high value swap and I dont seek compensation and accept the risk we all take. I am just very disappointed that I wont get the beautiful coins I really wanted but dont want to damage his reputation. How do I rate the attempt at at good swap gone bad? No rating?
no * rating, because swap actually didn't happen. NO STAR rating will not damage person's rating reputation. !!! Do not mix it with 0 STARS RATING!!! I was rated the same way, when coins were stolen out of my registered letter to India. Envelope was received empty...
Every single coin on the world should meet its collector!
Verweis : "gyoschak"If a registered letter is verified lost by the postal service, (the post office admits they are at fault) who is responsible for the loss? The sender? The receiver? Nobody?
How would you resolve the situation to satisfy both swap partners?
First of all- nobody of partners are guilty, because of unprofessional post services done by sometimes even criminal employees. The question is about, how polite You can be. During my swap history I always did something to my swap partner, who did not receive my coins. In case I receive his ones, and He does not, depending on swap values I:
- sent the same coins again,
- sent partially some of coins from the swap,
- was just sorry,
- send some compensation via PayPal.
Every single coin on the world should meet its collector!
In EU and in Finland the maximum compensation is apprx. 30 eur, no matter what has been inside the envelope. If I want to use registering and get the tracking code, that costs me 11 eur extra, which is way too much comparing to the maximum compensation. That's why I don't want to use registered mail at all. If my normal package get lost, I will try to deliver similar coins as a compensation, even I could prove I mailed the "lost" package.
Verweis : "harryg"I have a similar problem and need advice on how to handle it. I swapped with a guy who has a good reputation and i believe that he did indeed mail it but I never recieved it. Its not a high value swap and I dont seek compensation and accept the risk we all take. I am just very disappointed that I wont get the beautiful coins I really wanted but dont want to damage his reputation. How do I rate the attempt at at good swap gone bad? No rating?
no * rating, because swap actually didn't happen. NO STAR rating will not damage person's rating reputation. !!! Do not mix it with 0 STARS RATING!!! I was rated the same way, when coins were stolen out of my registered letter to India. Envelope was received empty...
Thanks, Im going to wait another week and then take that good advice if I still fail to recieve them.
I don't really have a fixed policy. I treat each case on it's merits. As I don't make trades with those parts of the world with unreliable mail, or with anyone who has "lost mail" sob stories in their feedback, it's never been much of an issue.
In the specific case referenced in the OP I wouldn't be in a great hurry to do anything. It's not unusual for mail to be delayed or for some reason undeliverable in which case it returns to sender after an even longer delay.
At some point though you may to have to face the fact that it's lost forever. In such circumstances I'd be looking to share the loss equally whether as the sender or the (non)recipient. Adjusted of course for whatever can be recovered from the real guilty party - the mail carrier.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Verweis : "gyoschak"If a registered letter is verified lost by the postal service, (the post office admits they are at fault) who is responsible for the loss? The sender? The receiver? Nobody?
How would you resolve the situation to satisfy both swap partners?
I had this happen once and it is the reason I never use registered anymore. The postal service lost the package and then said too bad so sad your problem not ours since you shouldn't be sending coins. Thankfully my swapping partner and I were both reasonable. I replaced most of the lost coins and sent it to a friend of his who brought it to the destination. My partner included a couple extras in the next swap to offset my losses. I would say it was a 60/40 in which i took a slightly higher amount but we tried to split the loss as best we could.
Sender must claim to national post. If possible, avoid answer "coins" when they ask for the material involved. I always check it as tokens.
In the EU there is a limit for the compensation and it takes a long time (few months) to receive, I´ve got 3 compensations till now.
My solution is - when possible - send similar amount of coins or request a new selection from your swap partner, after you receive the compensation. This may lead to misinterpretations, but your partner must understand that you had also a loss - the contents and the shipping charges, and if you re-send, then you will be losing that as well. During this period, the package may be returned to sender. I had a letter sent to India that was returned 2 years (!!!) later. I also had a user from another country that shown me a lost letter being returned after 3 years!!
Unfortunately, I had some issues with swaps and you cannot rely on international post, and count that over 90% are delivered successfully. However, I assume a loss if I get the right tracking number, and when the swap partner shown a picture of the coins or the package, or the receipt with my address on it.
If the sender has the proof of sending, for me there is no option rather than give positive feedback. Neutral feedback is unfair as sender might not be responsible.
Verweis : "johnspa"This is always a sensitive topic with lost coins.
If there is proof, such as registered number for the package, and I am satisfied that it's not a scammer, I feel it's a risk we all take.
Both parties should do all they can to recover the coins, but no one is obligated to resend anything.
I put in my profile that I only resend on special swaps.
Good luck.
If send registered, then I always compensate, but only if my post office (after 3 months) proves to me that the letter never was received! That way scammers are excluded, right?
Verweis : "Jesse11"In the US I am fairly sure they would tell you that you're not allowed to send coins via registered mail and therefore it was at your own risk. Or they would look up your customs declaration where you claimed that $100 of coins was actually only worth $5 and then reimburse you $5.
That is what they really are doing if you will tell them about the coins, but if they lost it, they can not know what was inside, right? Just write there was a documents inside and that's it. At least here they honestly pays the compensation +/- 35 euro if the letter is lost. That does not help much at big swaps, but anyway.
Does it change your thoughts if your swap partner refuses to contact the postal service for compensation because "it is not worth his time, and not worth the money"?
Verweis : "gyoschak"Does it change your thoughts if your swap partner refuses to contact the postal service for compensation because "it is not worth his time, and not worth the money"?
Are you referring to the sending or receiving partner?
1. If the letter was NOT sent as registered, then if no agreement was made beforehand, it's very difficult. Both the sender and the receiver might be scammers! No way to tell! Now if it's not the first trade between those two persons, they'll normally be able to work something out between them.
2. If the letter was sent registered, then only the sender can do something about the matter. When told that the letter did not arrive, he has to go to his post office to claim the loss of the letter. The post office will then look into the matter (around 3 months time) and will then come back towards you with an answer:
2a. If the letter was received at the given address, the sender and the PO are not any longer responsible for the "loss"!
2b. If the letter did NOT reach the address, then the letter was "lost" somewhere and now it's the responsibility of the PO. If it was sent with an insurance postage, the sender will get that insurance value paid back, and that's all he can pay to receiver or coins of the same value. If it was sent without an insurance, then it is a real problem to say up to how much in value the sender is responsible for.
So only 2a is really clear, no sender responsibility! For 2b it's clear if an insurance was taken, but normally even non insured letter have a minimum penalty pay-back from the PO!
Lesson to be learned:
In a first trade always use insured registered letters.
In follow-up trades, make an agreement with the partner of the "what if" situation!
There's a problem though Ole. At least in the US, the postal service are quite happy to accept your insurance premiums but will subsequently refuse payment because coins are either excluded due to being prohibited by the receiving country or in the case of domestic mail, they will be refunded.... at face value.
Coin collectors are caught between a rock and a hard place. If we list the contents accurately the contents are stolen en route or confiscated at customs, if we list the true value the recipient will face a hefty import tax. So we describe the coins as something other than what they are, list them as a gift and put the value at $10. By doing so we have invalidated any insurance claim. It would seem to me that until our respective regulators get their act together we're all at the mercy of Lady Luck.
Has anyone from the US ever made a successful claim for a lost parcel based on numismatic value?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Verweis : "pnightingale"There's a problem though Ole. At least in the US, the postal service are quite happy to accept your insurance premiums but will subsequently refuse payment because coins are either excluded due to being prohibited by the receiving country or in the case of domestic mail, they will be refunded.... at face value.
Coin collectors are caught between a rock and a hard place. If we list the contents accurately the contents are stolen en route or confiscated at customs, if we list the true value the recipient will face a hefty import tax. So we describe the coins as something other than what they are, list them as a gift and put the value at $10. By doing so we have invalidated any insurance claim. It would seem to me that until our respective regulators get their act together we're all at the mercy of Lady Luck.
Has anyone from the US ever made a successful claim for a lost parcel based on numismatic value?
Hi,
if the letter is lost there is NO way the post office will know there were coins in the letter.... and they'll not be able to verify any content at all. So just claim it was something else for the same value, no?
It's never happened to me thus far so I can only go off what other people tell me.
All overseas parcels from the US come with $50 insurance included in the cost along with free tracking. I guess it might be possible to claim the $50, maybe even the postage costs as well by making some kind of generic claim avoiding all mention of the "C" word. I'm just not sure how you could reconcile claiming $200 for lost "Hobby Supplies" when you've listed the value as only $10 on the customs declaration. If I was a USPS loss adjuster that's the first place I'd look.
It does seem to be an issue because I'm seeing more and more eBay sellers stating quite clearly that they will not alter the stated value on overseas shipments.
It would be tremendously useful to hear from anyone who has dealt with such an issue successfully. If there's a way to correctly phrase the claim etc.
There must be a "right way" to mail coins overseas as third party grading services are doing it all day every day. Some of the coins they are shipping have values in the tens of thousands, yet they make it work. I wonder how a person submitting a coin from let's say France to a US based TPG manages to have it returned via insured mail without getting charged a small fortune in import duties?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Hi
I wouldn't know since I've never lost a letter to the States. A letter from the States was never lost either.
Since a couple of years I always send my letters from OKC, when I or my wife visit our daughter, and I also get the letters from North American exchanges sent to her address.
I could tell you about my experiences with Mexico and India but that would be another topic....
Ole
I feel your pain my friend. One year I lost about 10 in the mail. From places you would think is fine. France,Italy and even in the US. Now what I like to do ,I know will not work for most of you. But I like to send first, to make sure they get there coins. It is a good way to be taken. But it me.
the symbolic sum provided for such cases. If the sender declare previously a sum/value to be assured, the postal service reimburses in proportion to the sum assured.
